Hiding your certification level

[SteveAD]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this question. Do any of you with DM/instructor or other pro level certifications hide your cert. level when on a trip with other divers you do not know (ie:liveaboards)? When I am required to present a c-card, I ussually only present the card which represents the lowest level of training which will cover my activities for the week (usually a Nitrox card suffices). I am concerned about liability and or getting paired with an inexperienced diver if I require a buddy. Just wonder how the rest of you handle this. I think I will also post this on the instructor forum.
Thanks

I would not hide my cert level from the operator. Nor do I advertise it to the other passengers on the boat. However, if the crew tries to "encourage" me to buddy with someone I would not otherwise choose to dive with, I would politely inform them that my rate for private instruction is $500 per day plus expenses. So as soon as they refund my charter fee and hand me the cash they can tell me who to dive with.

 

[drbill]

I thought that a legal decision had been reached in the last few years that concluded a diver with a professional certification was not liable for anything that happened to other divers unless they were under his or her direct supervision. Not sure how that applies to diving with an insta-buddy.

The prior opinion on this was one good reason I avoided getting any professional certifications. I've considered having an instructor friend create a new specialty certification to designate me as a "flailer" so I could show that "card."

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Remember as well that diving is just like sex when it comes to being paired with an instabuddy. You can say yes, no, or charge for it. The last two will usually get you out of it. Unless the guy/gal has lots of cash and then you make out like a bandit!

 

[cappyjon431]

I have never hidden my certification level (and i've been an instructor over 15 years) because it was always my understanding that if the doo-doo hit the fan, someone was going to supeona me regardless of what card I showed. I have been on a lot of charter boats (liveaboards and day boats), seen a lot of crazy stuff, and have never had an issue raised because of my professional certification level.

In reality, this question raises a more philosophical issue: There are plenty of "OW" divers out there with tons more experience than lots of instructors out there. I know lots of OW divers with 500+ dives who are much better divers than many instructors out there. Cave divers, while not necessarily having a professional rating, are often much better divers than OWSIs. Why is the legal standard being a dive "professional" when clearly the label often is meaningless when it comes to experience level?

 

[DiveMaven]

I often do this, just because I want to relax, and don't want to be relied upon to help babysit. Something I have had happen in the past. To be honest, just being a cold water PNW diver was enough for a charter to treat me as a "skillled" diver and was actually told - "well I know I won't need to watch you then." That was fine with me. Even tho I don't always let others know, it doesn't mean I "turn off" when on vacation. I still find myself watching out for others and staying ready to be of assistance.

And what's so hilarious about this to me is that when we're asked where we live, just because we say Washington State it is ASSUMED that we're cold water divers and "skilled".....and we don't dive locally!!

 

[Walter]

Why is the legal standard being a dive "professional" when clearly the label often is meaningless when it comes to experience level?

Not being a lawyer, I don't know if it is or isn't, but it seems to me that if you quitely go about your business and make your dives you are less likely to be blamed for an accident than if you proclaim you are an instructor and tell someone what they should change and that person has an accident as a result of making that change. When diving for fun, I try not to call attention to the fact I'm an instructor which starts with me showing an advanced card. If I think someone is doing something dangerous, I ask them about it. I ask why they do it that way, then I might say something like, I've always done it this other way because.....

For me, it's not about "hiding" anything. It is about not entering into an instructor/student relationship with the extra duty of care that comes with it unless that person really is my student.

 

[ItsBruce]

There is a frightening amount of bad information and advice here. For those who are not lawyers, it is probably best not to be giving advice about potential liability.

However, as usual, RJP is absolutely right.

As a lawyer, I can tell you that I'd have a field day with a defendant who was hiding his true cert level.

I can also tell you that fear of liability is not something that would deter me from getting my DM certification. (Time is a problem, however.)

As far as insurance, unless one is engaged in a "business pursuit" or a "professional activity," a basic homeowner's insurance policy or renter's insurance policy with liability coverage will probably cover a diver's liability. Being a DM or instructor does not mean one is engaged in a "business pursuit" when one is diving on one's own time for recreation.

 

[H2O Gal]

So which is the real issue here? Liability or the worry of being stuck with an inexperienced diver? Well, I consider myself to be a very experienced diver, but I actually like diving with newly certified divers. I must admit I've dived for so long I'm a bit blase about certain safety issues, and when I dive with a newly certified diver watching them prepare for dives and do safety checks helps refresh my memory of the basics....what they don't have in experience they usually make up for with being more currently trained and diligent in the safety issues than I am after 30 years. And I hope that my comfort level and ease in the water relaxes them enough that they can actually enjoy the dive. We usually both learn from each other and I really like that aspect of diving with someone new!

 

[diverdoug1]

H2O gal, both are the issue. Usually on a liveaboard, I am shooting photographs. I will not be being a good buddy. They could be eaten by the Kraken, and I would not notice if I am setting up a Macro shot. This is why I either like to dive solo or with my spouse (who helps me with my photographic endeavours). When she can't dive with me, I usually am able to quietly go about my bussiness without a buddy (except my little buddy Luxfer). I don't feel that it is fair to a new diver to be paired with an U/W photographer, and I feel that my personal risk goes up quite a bit by being paired with them. If I am compelled to dive with a new diver, I simply don't take my camera (which does not make me happy, and I usually change the circumstances as quickly as possible). As far as liability concerns, I was more concerned with group dives.

 

[boulderjohn]

If your concern is being placed with an inexperienced diver, then I think your concern is misplaced. The dive operator wants you to have a good time, come back, and recommend the operation to others. Most operators I have seen try to match people by ability. It is therefore more likely that they will place you with the best possible situation than the worst possible situation.

On that theory, I always show my instructor card, and I have never had a problem. Jut the opposite. The operators usually go out of their way to make sure I have a good experience. Once on the boat, I usually don't talk about it, but I want the crew to know my level.

I saw the contrast clearly a couple of years ago when diving in Florida. When I signed up for the dive in the shop, I showed my card and had a very nice chat with the shop owner, who was the one who signed me up. When I later went to the boat, the DM had only a manifest with names (no cert levels), and he didn't ask. Not knowing anything about me, he set me up with a couple of people who later turned out to be the worst case scenario--beginners with an crappy attitude that they were much better than they were. Fortunately, as we were preparing to leave, the owner got on the boat briefly. We chatted again, and when he saw what had happened, he interceded and got me a much better situation.

Sure, I suppose it is possible that an operator will try to take advantage of you, but that would be a poor operator you never want to use again. The opposite is far more likely to be the case. Not showing your card for fear that you might be stuck in a rare bad situation cuts you off from the more common excellent situations.