"Helpful" male dive buddies

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In today's society it's often difficult for a man to know how to interact with a woman on a social level ... because of our changing social expectations, certainly ... but also because (stereotypes notwithstanding), what one person may take as a compliment someone else may take as insulting.

I especially liked this statement. Our society has a tendency to celebrate the advantages of diversity, but there's a cost in unity; we simply don't have universal agreement on some basic social issues.

For example, while both men & women wish to be treated with dignity and respect, do women wish to be treated just like men - in other words, should our social behavior with people outside our nuclear families (e.g.: spouse, children) or very close friends be 'gender neutral?'

For that matter, to what extent is gender neutral possible in the context of human nature?

From what I've heard and read, there's no consensus on my first question, and the answer to the second is a matter of degree and the specifics aren't clear.

Without judging the behavior in the original post's situation, I would point out that some 'traditionalist' men unconsciously view offering 'additional' supportiveness to women as kind, helpful and encouraging, not condescending and presumptuous. Some women appreciate that, some don't. But without due care, it can come across as in a really bad way. Asking/offering beats out Presume/grab-and-do!

Richard.
 
I am probably going to get it for posting this video but here is a very helpful instructor :shakehead:

Bad Scuba Instructor - YouTube


As for the OP. I check my wife's gear and she checks mine. As for others regardless of their sex, I may look at their gear but do not say anything unless I see an issue.
 
I am probably going to get it for posting this video but here is a very helpful instructor :shakehead:

Bad Scuba Instructor - YouTube


As for the OP. I check my wife's gear and she checks mine. As for others regardless of their sex, I may look at their gear but do not say anything unless I see an issue.

if the student is his wife or even close friend, I don't see anything wrong with this. It appears that the video was shot by a third party, and a few assumptions were made that may or may not be accurate.
 
Who cares if you alienate them? They're doing it to you by running up and grabbing your equipment. Here's a tip for you...say, "touch my s*** and you'll pull back a broken hand".

Yes, a really great way to make friends on the dive boat. Hopefully, you wont need help during the dive.

I've found people (both male and female) usually like to be helpful. Men have a natural tendency to be protective of women; or at least that's how it use to be.

I had an experience opening a door for a woman and being told "I'm just as capable as you and am able to open my own f'n door." Nice touch Lady... It's usually better to lose the attitude.
 
Some of you keep harping on and on about opening doors.... I always thank anybody (male or female) who holds a door open for me, particularly if it's already open and could come flying back at me, or if I've got my hands full, or I can't reach the handle for whatever reason. It's just common courtesy, like holding a branch while on a walk through the woods to keep it from slapping your companion in the face or like what I do with my 85-year-old-limited-mobility mom who walks with a cane and is a bit unsteady on her feet. I think the holding of doors for ladies is a holdover from a time when women wore voluminous floor-length gowns and simply couldn't reach the door handle for having so many petticoats and skirt hoops in the way. Just as women have moved on from crippling attire like corsets and hoop skirts which limited their mobility and into blue jeans and sports bras which do not, men should recognize that women are no longer limited in our mobility and simply treat everybody, whether male or female, young and hot or mature and weathered, gay or straight, etc., with courtesy and respect, at all times, not just when they're standing in front of a closed door. What the OP experienced was not courteous nor respectful behaviour on the part of the men on her boat.
 
Hmmmm ... I just reread this entire thread having been absent from it for a couple months. Some thoughts ...

First off, I see an awful lot of overreaction going on in the responses ... and most wouldn't be either helpful or appropriate to the situation the OP described. It makes me wonder if, culturally, we've forgotten that the whole point of scuba diving is to have fun, and perhaps socialize with people who share a common interest. It's a recreational activity, folks ... is there really a reason to attack someone or make them feel put off because they did something they probably thought was being helpful but in a way that you didn't particularly like? How about "handling it" by simply being honest ... and perhaps polite (like our parents taught us at an early age) ... and saying "please don't do that"?

The OP is from my area, and although diving's a pretty popular activity here, we tend to be a community who more or less know each other. My guess is she's diving with a dive club ... we have several in our area ... and the person she's describing is an old-school guy (we have a lot of those here too) who grew up in an era when diving was male-dominated ... and he's simply doing what was, in an earlier era, culturally accepted as "normal". If so, a polite response is more likely to change his attitude than an impolite one ... since the latter may give him more cause to consider the respondent's behavior than his own to be out of line.

Another thought is that, since she indicated they've dived together before, she may be demonstrating things ... perhaps without even knowing it ... that "ring some alarm bells" ... and without wanting to bring those things up he's just trying to make sure she's OK before going into the water. I'm not suggesting his behavior is justified ... but it is most likely well-intentioned. And a better way to deal with it would be a simple, frank question "Why did you do that?"

In today's society it's often difficult for a man to know how to interact with a woman on a social level ... because of our changing social expectations, certainly ... but also because (stereotypes notwithstanding), what one person may take as a compliment someone else may take as insulting. An example would be that I've known women who get insulted if a man opens a door for her ("I'm perfectly capable of opening my own door"), while another woman might get insulted if he doesn't. The woman in my life really likes me to open the door for her ... and she's one of the most capable women I've ever met.

Finally, for the guys out there ... a woman generally likes to be asked. I recall when I first started diving with TSandM, and was helping her become familiar with the BP/W setup I loaned her. I was real hesitant about helping her with the crotch strap. I asked her if she minded if I helped her with it, because of where it was. She said something like "as a doctor I don't worry about things like that." My reply was "as a scuba instructor, I do". I imagine that, even under the circumstances, not asking might have evoked a different interaction ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)


Hi Bob, I think this is the best response of the thread.Common sense and up to the point. You nailed it.
 
I have encountered two different types of female divers. Those who get offended if they are helped and those who love the attention.

There was one girl that I was diving with who was such a drama-queen, she was acting all Marilyn Monroe stupid just so that everyone on the boat could give her special attention. First I thought she was attempting to get the attention of the DM because there appeared to be some chemistry there but later I realized that her behavior was not person specific. She loved to have the power over all men on the boat and she was pretty good in making everyone eager to assist her. I am not the type to fall for this drama but if someone says to you "Oh my God I am such a klutz when I have my fins on" followed by seductive girl-giggling then you know that they love the VIP treatment. The boat was not even rocking but she loved being escorted all the way to the dive platform and it seemed more like a power thing for her.

Then there are the other extreme. Even if you offer ordinary assistance to them the way you would to your male buddy, they get offended because the suffer from some kind of a "I can do it all by myself" complex. To be honest I am quite fed up with figuring our which one will be which when we start gearing up so ...I just shut up and dive and let God sort them out. I do feel sorry for the DMs and the boat crew who have to deal with such characters on a frequent basis. They really do not have the option of acting aloof like I do.
 
Let's face it... there is bad gender-based behavior by both sexes (as well as mostly good). I hold doors for anyone regardless of race, creed, color, gender, sexual orientation or politics.
 
I'm actually dumbfounded that the guys would belittle you like that. I highly doubt male strangers on a dive charter would do that. At least I'm not aware of any. It sounds more like a dive group that knows you, teases you and your husband doesn't do anything about it. Either he doesn't see it or doesn't know how to deal with it.
The bad news is that in my opinion, he should stand up.
The good news is that even if he doesn't, you should. It may feel uncomfortable and may even make your husband feel small but that's all good.
Trust me if a guy is put in his place even in the slightest by a woman, he'll back off and any other guy that see's it probably will too. You don't have to be B**ch to make that happen.
Like an earlier poster, you could start by being a little light saying something like, "Do you need me to check your gear next?" if that doesn't work try "I already have a dive buddy to check my gear" or if you need to "I'll ask you if I need your help".
If these guys are honestly trying to help you, then I must say, I'm surprised they aren't asking you first.
I'm having difficulty picturing someone just touching and checking someones gear without asking.
 
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Well, there are very few scuba diving girls in my surroundings - so few that we know each other quite well by name. I mean of course scuba divers, who dive all around a year, also in cold, Polish conditions. Guys tend to act patronizing, take your equipment and try to check it (I`m allergic to somebody touching my staff without permission,!). That`s especially popular among men with less dives and definitely worse skills then mine! I love their faces, when they see me under water after short surface speach. I don`t need anybody to carry my tanks - and I dive in doubles, often with stage bottles, even if it weight more less the same as me (everything is around 60 kilos). This patronizing style is very popular among recreational divers, none of my tech collegues would dare to act like this!
What`s funny, I feel much better with technical divers, in some magical way they know very well how to behave. There`s no place for patronizing treatment, for "good advice", stupid smiles, taking equipment without asking, etc. It`s funny, because they can`t be used to technical diving girls - there are so few of us and they treat us like "normal" buddies. I have absolutely no idea what is causing this difference...

As an instructor I must say, that there aren`t enough women divers. Unfortunately, because in my opinion we make better divers, calm and cautious, with great buoyancy.
I met many terrible males, who consider themselves great divers and many girls, who were a way better and with terribly low self - esteem. That`s sad.
 
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