"Helpful" male dive buddies

[nimoh]

Admittedly, there is no such thing as common sense when it comes to me and social interactions - men or women. I must have a mental block or something, but I've learned every "people skill" I know by trial and error.

Having said that, the first instance was a shore dive where the person in question was trying to don her BC standing up and couldn't pull the tank up to get her second arm in - as she huffed and puffed and about fell over, I picked the tank up for her, never touching her or any other part of her gear. I considered this person a somewhat distant friend, so I did what any friend would do and lent a helping hand - no, I didn't ask, she was about to fall over and bust her head on something.

The second instance was from across the dive boat with a stranger, where the DMs were helping out with gear anyway. To say I was staring would be a little excessive, I just happened to notice and tune in on it before the DMs did. Now it would seem a little weird to me if someone were to get up, walk across the dive boat, and attempt to lend assistance when a DM who gets paid to do these things is mere feet away (all he had to do was turn around). So no, I didn't ask, in fact I'm a little confused as to why I was singled out across the boat as "that guy" in this instance anyway.

Does the situation change the frame of reference? I don't know, perhaps my judgement is severely flawed. I have asked politely in the past, and the reply seems to be a coin toss between "no thanks"/"sure" and a negative reply varying from a frustrated sigh to an all out insult on my character. Could they be having a bad day or are just that way, maybe...I simply don't know. As someone who was raised to open doors and help the elderly cross the street, I'm finding well mannered intentions met with scorn on an ever increasing basis, and thus can only reason that such acts are no longer needed, wanted, or accepted any longer. I certainly don't want to tell anyone how to act or feel, but having a little consistency for those of us who are slow in the social department would really help to smooth things out.

given the additional detail, I retract my previous post.

I don't believe there is any need to ask permission to help someone that is about to fall over and hurt themselves, male or female. As for the second situation, I'm not sure I understand what happened after the additional added detail, so I retract that one too

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Well pocky21, my perspective is you've been getting a raw deal. Of course, my perspective is derived only from reading your side of the story. It seems to me in those instances you were in "wrong place wrong time" due to being within the verbal striking zone of two people that were already frustrated with themselves. All I can offer is that from here on in "may I help you with that? " are key words in either similar scenario.

Or he could do the sensible thing, and just let everyone else sink or swim as best they can while he handles his own gear. The best part about equality is not having to care If someone wants help, let them ask for it; otherwise, treat them as an adult who can either handle themselves or handle the consequences.

 

[Steve_C]

I frequently am on a boat without buddy when traveling. If I see another single I will often approach them with the idea of being a buddy ( I think I am a very good buddy that adjusts the dive to their skill and interests). Many are female some young some not. Sometimes I get a get lost creep look. Sometimes I get emails later thanking me for a wonderful dive. It does not matter which happens. The important thing to me is that I know that I offered.

 

[chillyinCanada]

Steve, I might be one to give you the get lost creep look. Which you will be misinterpreting. I'm often on a boat without a buddy. In those instances, rarely do I want one. So, if you offer to be my buddy, I'm likely to be dismayed, as opposed to really thinking you are a creep.

You've made an excellent point with regard to "The important thing to me is that I know that I offered". And to me, this applies for all of the guys that are complaining here in our Women's Perspectives thread. Guys, if you truly believe you aren't being creepy and are truly only offering a generic "we divers help each other out", then you will have to satisfy yourselves with "you attempted to do the right thing". A bad/negative reaction to that really shouldn't be considered your problem.

 

[oldschoolto]

Thanks oldschool, didn't take long at all for another male forum member to come into Women's Perspectives sub forum and tell the women how they should act and feel. Good work.

Thank you.... I knew it was going to go over good.... Sometimes us men are damned if we do and damned if we don't.... I guess this forum is for men bashing and blowing smoke where the sun don't shine....

Can't have it both ways.... When a person is secure in their abilities , knowledge and self worth..... A helping hand or being shown a better way or learning from others is not a problem.... If someone grabbed my tank to help me put it on or take it off..... All I would think is to say " THANKS "

And with that..... as we say in skydiving.... " DOOR " Bye......

Jim.....

 

[chillyinCanada]

Guess you didn't like that much did you Jim? And neither have you been able to draw a parallel. See ya bye.

 

[Ayisha]

Can't have it both ways.... When a person is secure in their abilities , knowledge and self worth..... A helping hand or being shown a better way or learning from others is not a problem.... If someone grabbed my tank to help me put it on or take it off..... All I would think is to say " THANKS "

So Jim is suggesting that those of us who don't consider all "help" to be helpful are not secure in our "abilities, knowledge and self worth". Is that true?

Personally, I don't think so. Something in the way that the help was given has interfered with us helping ourselves or in our own protocols. I don't know too many men that would appreciate someone handling their gear without permission, so why should women? In fact, the ability of someone to stand up for their personal space and not just accept being "manhandled" for lack of a better word, speaks volumes about their confidence and self-esteem.

Emergency situations or an imminent mishap are not the type of thing where immediate unsolicited help is not appreciated. It's the fiddling or interference without permission and without an immediate need that is unwelcome.

Do our past experiences affect our acceptance of interactions? Sure. Many attractive women are used to people of both sexes looking at them, and are also used to people commenting on or assisting with their gear in a way that is assumed to be a method of pick-up. How do you distinguish between a person who genuinely wants to help from a person who is trying to pick you up or force interactions? Hard to tell, especially at first. How do you distinguish between a person who genuinely wants to help and someone who is condescending? Hard to tell, but presentation goes a long way.

 

[oldschoolto]

Guess you didn't like that much did you Jim? And neither have you been able to draw a parallel. See ya bye.

Didn't bother me one bit..... took it as a woman complaining again....

Jim....

 

[chillyinCanada]

:tongue2:

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Hmmmm ... I just reread this entire thread having been absent from it for a couple months. Some thoughts ...

First off, I see an awful lot of overreaction going on in the responses ... and most wouldn't be either helpful or appropriate to the situation the OP described. It makes me wonder if, culturally, we've forgotten that the whole point of scuba diving is to have fun, and perhaps socialize with people who share a common interest. It's a recreational activity, folks ... is there really a reason to attack someone or make them feel put off because they did something they probably thought was being helpful but in a way that you didn't particularly like? How about "handling it" by simply being honest ... and perhaps polite (like our parents taught us at an early age) ... and saying "please don't do that"?

The OP is from my area, and although diving's a pretty popular activity here, we tend to be a community who more or less know each other. My guess is she's diving with a dive club ... we have several in our area ... and the person she's describing is an old-school guy (we have a lot of those here too) who grew up in an era when diving was male-dominated ... and he's simply doing what was, in an earlier era, culturally accepted as "normal". If so, a polite response is more likely to change his attitude than an impolite one ... since the latter may give him more cause to consider the respondent's behavior than his own to be out of line.

Another thought is that, since she indicated they've dived together before, she may be demonstrating things ... perhaps without even knowing it ... that "ring some alarm bells" ... and without wanting to bring those things up he's just trying to make sure she's OK before going into the water. I'm not suggesting his behavior is justified ... but it is most likely well-intentioned. And a better way to deal with it would be a simple, frank question "Why did you do that?"

In today's society it's often difficult for a man to know how to interact with a woman on a social level ... because of our changing social expectations, certainly ... but also because (stereotypes notwithstanding), what one person may take as a compliment someone else may take as insulting. An example would be that I've known women who get insulted if a man opens a door for her ("I'm perfectly capable of opening my own door"), while another woman might get insulted if he doesn't. The woman in my life really likes me to open the door for her ... and she's one of the most capable women I've ever met.

Finally, for the guys out there ... a woman generally likes to be asked. I recall when I first started diving with TSandM, and was helping her become familiar with the BP/W setup I loaned her. I was real hesitant about helping her with the crotch strap. I asked her if she minded if I helped her with it, because of where it was. She said something like "as a doctor I don't worry about things like that." My reply was "as a scuba instructor, I do". I imagine that, even under the circumstances, not asking might have evoked a different interaction ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)