Help with the knees please!

[LI Diver]

Maybe one of you guys (or gals) have a suggestion on this one. I have been going to the gym 3-4 times per week and have been rotating from 45 minutes on the stationary bike one day then 45 min on elliptical the next and finally 100 laps of a 25 yard pool with fins,mask and snorkel on the 3rd day. I've been told that these are the lowest impact exercises I can do. I had been using my full foot fins that I usually snorkel with. This week I decided to use my open heel fins that I actually dive with. I noticed upon putting them into my gym bag that they are a good 5" longer than my full foots. Well my knees have been starting to become painful when climbing stairs and I was a little leary as to what the longer fins would do to them. The longer fins seem more flexible so I thought it might negate the length.WRONG today my knees are screaming! I have never had pain after using the shorter fins or after actually diving with the longer fins. However I did have an auto accident since my last diving trip so this could be mitigating factor. I was wondering if the I should try the split fins that a lot of divers swear by (apollo bio fins or scuba pro twin jets etc.) I also wonder if the fact that I am swimming 2500 yards continously is not really reproducing actual dive conditions. Do we swim as far on a dive? It takes me about 45 minutes which is about the length of my average dive. It equates to about a mile and a half. But of course there is also no current in the pool. When diving with a guide it seems the entire dive is one long swim. I guess the real question here though is about the split fins. Anyone??????
Thanks, ED

 

[Rick Murchison]

Wow! From my experience you're having totally unexpected results from finning. So unexpected that I'd bet there's something else that's actually hurting them and the finning's just seeming to bring the pain out.
If it is finning I'd sure be curious as to how and just exactly what's being irritated.
As for the splits, they definitely reduce the load per kick - but they require more kicks to cover the same distance (can't get somethin' for nothin' don'tchaknow ). So, if it is the load that's causing the pain then the splits should help, but if it's the repetitive motion that's causing the pain then the splits will exacerbate the problem.
Rick
<edit - giving this a little more thought - I wonder if the bigger fins are somehow causing so much resistence that they're "slipping" off to one side or the other during the power stroke and putting a side load on your knees... if that's the case then splits should help a lot, as they tend to keep things nice and straight>

 

[LI Diver]

Rick
<edit - giving this a little more thought - I wonder if the bigger fins are somehow causing so much resistence that they're "slipping" off to one side or the other during the power stroke and putting a side load on your knees... if that's the case then splits should help a lot, as they tend to keep things nice and straight>[/QUOTE]

Actually come to think of it I did notice that I was getting some sideways wiggle out of the open heels on the down stroke they just seemed to like flutter from side to side every so often. I had the straps cinched all the way.But maybe you are on to something!
Thanks

 

[Fred R.]

Good morning Ed,

Simple question, no simple answer. My advice on what fins to use would depend on whether you are swimming for exercise, physical therapy, or trying to reproduce scuba conditions.

If you are swimming for physical therapy, Force Fins are the best. They actually make a small version (or they did) that is just for therapy use in pools. There is some ergonomics of the Force Fin that helps exercise the muscles while allowing joints to heal.

If you are trying to reproduce scuba conditions, unless you do a lot of shore diving, you shouldn't be targeting a mile and a half. I do a LOT of boat diving, distance on dives tends to be around 100 yards, plus or minus. You just don't see detail if you rush around.

If you are finning for exercise, heart rate, strength, that sort of thing, then you need to use a fin that doesn't hurt you. Splits do what they do by helping you get more forward motion with a tighter scissors kick. They are great for getting more distance at moderate speeds. That may counteract your plans for exercise.

As far as knee pain goes, understand that fins are not equal in catagories. Just because a pair of fins is split does not make them work the same, or as well. If it did, all you would have to do is take a pair of shears to the fins you have now. (and some of the splits on the market, are about that well designed) Just because a pair of fins is not split does not give them any particular characteristic.

I know of one brand and type of fin, that I think is an excellent fin. I got a pair for my wife, who has knee and ankle trouble. She's done 950 dives with those fins, with no pain or problems. When we met, she had another brand of fin, that looked almost the same that caused her terrible pain in the knees. She was ready to quit diving when we met, the pain and trouble wasn't worth it to her anymore.

Not only does the type of fin, shape of fin, and material the fin is made of matter, very importantly, fit is critical.

If your snorkeling fins are comfortable for your long exercise swims, stick with them, they are designed with long swims in mind. If you scuba fins hurt, leave them in your bag till your scuba trips, they have a different task to do.

I hope this helps....

Fred

 

[LI Diver]

Good morning Ed,

Simple question, no simple answer. My advice on what fins to use would depend on whether you are swimming for exercise, physical therapy, or trying to reproduce scuba conditions.

If you are swimming for physical therapy, Force Fins are the best. They actually make a small version (or they did) that is just for therapy use in pools. There is some ergonomics of the Force Fin that helps exercise the muscles while allowing joints to heal.

If you are trying to reproduce scuba conditions, unless you do a lot of shore diving, you shouldn't be targeting a mile and a half. I do a LOT of boat diving, distance on dives tends to be around 100 yards, plus or minus. You just don't see detail if you rush around.

If you are finning for exercise, heart rate, strength, that sort of thing, then you need to use a fin that doesn't hurt you. Splits do what they do by helping you get more forward motion with a tighter scissors kick. They are great for getting more distance at moderate speeds. That may counteract your plans for exercise.

As far as knee pain goes, understand that fins are not equal in catagories. Just because a pair of fins is split does not make them work the same, or as well. If it did, all you would have to do is take a pair of shears to the fins you have now. (and some of the splits on the market, are about that well designed) Just because a pair of fins is not split does not give them any particular characteristic.

I know of one brand and type of fin, that I think is an excellent fin. I got a pair for my wife, who has knee and ankle trouble. She's done 950 dives with those fins, with no pain or problems. When we met, she had another brand of fin, that looked almost the same that caused her terrible pain in the knees. She was ready to quit diving when we met, the pain and trouble wasn't worth it to her anymore.

Not only does the type of fin, shape of fin, and material the fin is made of matter, very importantly, fit is critical.

If your snorkeling fins are comfortable for your long exercise swims, stick with them, they are designed with long swims in mind. If you scuba fins hurt, leave them in your bag till your scuba trips, they have a different task to do.

I hope this helps....

Fred

Thanks Fred makes sense

 

[freediver]

I would tend to say you may be sideslipping as well. As Fred has mentioned, fit is critical. Also, where is the knee pain? Is it on the inside or outside of the knee, or all over? You may also want to consider the possibility that maybe your ankles are a bit weak/inflexible and this may contribute to the "sideslipping". Perhaps you could change your kick over a few workouts to see if you are still getting the painful results. Stretch and strengthen your ankles...they are often overlooked.

 

[LI Diver]

I would tend to say you may be sideslipping as well. As Fred has mentioned, fit is critical. Also, where is the knee pain? Is it on the inside or outside of the knee, or all over? You may also want to consider the possibility that maybe your ankles are a bit weak/inflexible and this may contribute to the "sideslipping". Perhaps you could change your kick over a few workouts to see if you are still getting the painful results. Stretch and strengthen your ankles...they are often overlooked.

Thank you, the pain is in the front just below the knee cap.

 

[coach_izzy]

Thank you, the pain is in the front just below the knee cap.

I'm surprised that nobody has brought up this before (or is aware of it), but my advice is ditch the Elliptical trainer. We know them as the "Silent Knee Wreckers" of gyms. People get a false sense of security when they're sold-out the non-impact nonsense. For an elliptical machine to be safer, the rails of the guided motion should be pointed at an angle that accomodates the angled insertion of the femur into hip, but I haven't seen one that complies with this.

You're forced into a parallel stance, which is worsened if the foot pads are narrow. This puts your knees at an ackward angle, which create an overuse injure little by little. People don't suspect this since they believe they're safe because they're training with "no impact"

Second, check your running mechanics. If you're a heavy heel-to-toe runner, that explains a lot. I would wean myself out of the treadmill if I were you. Walking/Running on the treadmill and doing it outside, are two ENTIRELY different activities, though they look similar (the neuromuscular patterns generated to accomplish those activities look nothing alike) (Never mind, you're not a runner, confused with another post, the rest applies though)

Third, train your body to handle impact. Regardless of what your previous condition may be, most people respond well to a periodized training program to handle impact. There's absolutely nothing wrong with impact. We deal with it all the time. It's one of those aspects brought up by the gravitational force of our planet. The problem is people who by either ignorance or stubborness add high impact activities to their programs without being physically ready for it.

If you're not sure on how to put a periodized strength/power endurance program that will help you deal with impact, then hire a qualified fitness professional to guide you.

If the pain is significant, check your physician. Get well soon and good luck!

 

[coach_izzy]

Wow! From my experience you're having totally unexpected results from finning. So unexpected that I'd bet there's something else that's actually hurting them and the finning's just seeming to bring the pain out.

Rick, you have the intuition and analytical powers that are SORELY missing in the fitness and medical fields. EXCELLENT OBSERVATION!!

 

[SangP]

Hi es601,

I too have bad knees courtesy of a cycling/car accident and I was very worried of getting fins that would make them pop!

From your post I don't think that you knees seem to have problems with repetive actions but they seem to scream when you put undue pressure on them.

Forget long fins and stiff fins.

The fins that I found work best for me are the Yellow apollos and a large jet fin (I used to cycle and my legs still have it in them to use them well).

I would also stay away from any fin that wobbles on you as they would stress out your knees.

SangP