Help With The First Bp/w Rig

[Lorenzoid]

If you do decide on DSS, go with the steel plate for the reasons tbone said. For rash guard up to a 3 mm, with an aluminum tank, you may be able to dive without any weights at all, or just a couple of small weights in trim pouches on the cambands. I love the look on a dive operator's face when they ask me how much lead I will be needing, and I say "none." No weight belt to mess with. My thinking is that Kydex would save so little weight in my luggage over steel, and I would need to make up the weight with lead, that I might as well stick with steel. If your luggage is overweight by 2-3 lbs., surely there is something you can leave at home.

Edit: Tobin posted while I was composing mine above. Tobin knows! Take his advice.

 

[2airishuman]

...
Based on the research and reading through all the relevant threads I've shortlisted 2 set-ups: DSS and Halcyon Infinity. Below are the pros and cons as I see them but am as I can't try neither of them here am looking for your helps to decide on the best fit.
DSS:
Pros: pure DIR rig, I like the idea of a lightweight Kydex plate. Tobin got hell of a reputation on the forum and I like it =) I've seen the sidemount extension for the plate as well so I assume transformation to sidemount rig would be reasonably easy.
Cons: currently I have to pull weight around the tank for proper trim - so lack of STA concerns me. Servicing might be an issue as shipping costs to US would be a nightmare =) Given most of the time I dive without a suit a BP without padding might not be really comfortable neither.

The DSS BP/W in stainless steel might help with your trim problems. With no STA the tank will be quite close to your body, perhaps closer than your current BC puts it, and a steel backplate provides better placed ballast. You can always add a trim pocket if you have to.

I have the DSS BP/W and like it.

I don't know what your weighting situation is or what tanks you're using but I see the kydex plate as a special-purpose item for situations where the ss plate would leave me overweighted (I do not presently have a kydex plate but plan on getting one at some point). For me that's pretty much just steel tanks in fresh water with no wetsuit.

I know it might look stupid but not having any experience with BP/W this is how I see it. Any recommendations? may be there is anything else I've missed.

I dive with a rubber weight belt for ditchable ballast. Something to consider.

 

[dmaziuk]

I'd go for 17-18lb wing. As for the cinch, a $15 subgravity slider or Tobin's equivalent will work just as well -- and yes, it does help on a boat where there isn't much room for swinging arms around.

I ended up putting a couple of small xs-scuba weight pouches on my shoulder straps and am about to buy 2 more for the waist. In fresh water I only need a couple of pounds on the tank strap and a steel plate would be a bit heavier than I'd like. However last week on Roatan I ended up carrying 10lbs and wishing for steel plate. The water's ridiculously "floaty" there: I could lie on top of it, have a beer and hold a conversation. I found that with 6lbs on the tank band I tend to "keel over" and moved them over to the front. That may not be DIR/GUE-compliant though, and they do get in the way a bit when fumbling for D-rings. On the plus side it makes the weight ditchable -- back on the tank strap it isn't.

 

[2airishuman]

It has always been my policy to decline sales of gear I think inappropriate or potentially unsafe. Our bolt on weights are *not* appropriate for tropical diving.

I don't know the whole story so maybe that buyer's situation was different.

With an AL80, 3/2mm fullsuit, salt water and an ss backplate, I can get by with 14 pounds of ballast but prefer 16 because with 14 I have to break trim to vent the last of my air out of the BC at the end of my dive. On my last trip to the tropics I left my bolt on weights at home. Next time I'll bring them. I can't imagine why they would be unsafe in that configuration.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I don't know the whole story so maybe that buyer's situation was different.

With an AL80, 3/2mm fullsuit, salt water and an ss backplate, I can get by with 14 pounds of ballast but prefer 16 because with 14 I have to break trim to vent the last of my air out of the BC at the end of my dive. On my last trip to the tropics I left my bolt on weights at home. Next time I'll bring them. I can't imagine why they would be unsafe in that configuration.

The typical human is close to neutral, and even those with a *lot* of extra lipids are seldom more than a few lbs positive.

If I know a divers height and weight and general fitness level it's not too hard to predict their inherent buoyancy. Anyone who has had spoken with me regarding a BP&W recommendation would recognize that I ask these questions.

A typical 3mm suit is about +4 lbs and an empty al 80 is + 4 lbs. That suggests right around 8 lbs of ballast is necessary to offset the wetsuit and buoyant cylinder.

Are actually diving with a SS plate (~6 lbs) + 16 lbs of lead + 2 lbs of regulator? That a total of 24 lbs of things that don't float. Even if the 6 lbs of plate was included in your 16 lbs that's 18 lbs of total ballast.

How do you explain the need for 24 or even 18 lbs to offset a 3mm wetsuit and empty al 80? That suggests that you, in your birthday suit are 10 to 16 lbs positive. That's pretty well off the charts.

If we threw you in the water in your swim trunks and handed you 16 lbs of lead how long would you expect to tread water?

Tobin

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . . I found that with 6lbs on the tank band I tend to "keel over" and moved them over to the front. . . .

Are you snugging the weight pouches on the tank bands up against the plate/wing? Obviously the farther away from the plate (and your body) they are, the more they would tend to roll you over.

 

[2airishuman]

The typical human is close to neutral, and even those with a *lot* of extra lipids are seldom more than a few lbs positive.

If I know a divers height and weight and general fitness level it's not too hard to predict their inherent buoyancy. Anyone who has had spoken with me regarding a BP&W recommendation would recognize that I ask these questions.

A typical 3mm suit is about +4 lbs and an empty al 80 is + 4 lbs. That suggests right around 8 lbs of ballast is necessary to offset the wetsuit and buoyant cylinder.

Are actually diving with a SS plate (~6 lbs) + 16 lbs of lead + 2 lbs of regulator? That a total of 24 lbs of things that don't float. Even if the 6 lbs of plate was included in your 16 lbs that's 18 lbs of total ballast.

In salt water, yes.

How do you explain the need for 24 or even 18 lbs to offset a 3mm wetsuit and empty al 80? That suggests that you, in your birthday suit are 10 to 16 lbs positive. That's pretty well off the charts.

In fresh water with a mask, snorkel, and fins (without booties), and a swimsuit I am 2 pounds positive. I've checked this multiple times. It's with good breath control, not with a deep breath. I weigh 240 pounds. In the ocean the saltwater adds 8 pounds of buoyancy, so I would be 10 pounds positive with no gear.

My 3XL wetsuit is 6 pounds positive (something else I've checked multiple times). The 5mm booties add another pound or so. So here's the math so far:

Body in freshwater 2
Add for salt 8
Wetsuit 6
Boots 1
AL80 4
------
21 pounds of things that float.

So, if we take your 24 pounds of things that sink that puts me 3 pounds over ideal. In practice I think I'm closer to 2 pounds over ideal, which I prefer on shallow dives so I can vent air from my (horseshoe) BC without having to break trim.

If we threw you in the water in your swim trunks and handed you 16 lbs of lead how long would you expect to tread water?

Well, in fresh water, I can tread water a good long time, and float if I take a deep breath. So in saltwater I could tread water with 8 pounds of lead until we both get bored. With 16 pounds, who knows, I know I can swim up from depth pretty comfortably at 10 pounds negative with fins. Long enough to ditch my kit in the event of a buoyancy control failure, at any rate, if that's where you're going with this.

But I have no intention of diving with the weight plates in a swimsuit. I'd dive them in a 3/2, sure, but that configuration puts me slightly positive once I drop the lead, and we're back at the "tread water for a really long time" point.

 

[Roman K]

Oh man, I didn't expect so many replies, thank you all for the contributions!

You really don't want to show up to the class thinking that your rig is ok,

How is one supposed to set the rig before the class 100% correct if he is new to DIR? =)

As for the SS vs Kydex:
I dive in a 3mm only about 3 months, 2 months in a 3mm shorty - the rest is - a rashguard. We use Al tanks only here...
I'm a relatively newbie diver so am still figuring out my lead needs and assume the BP/W has a bit different requirements... Currently if I dive with less than 7kg (15lbs) in my 3mm I can't hold on the 5m SS with an empty BCD. I would use 5kg with a shorty and 4 with a rashguard. I'm 175cm/80kg myself, reasonably fit but got a bit of extra soft tissue to loose =)

So the question is: would I be overweighted with the SS in a rashguard? I like the idea of pockets on the cambands (and I use them know). Would Al BP a reasonable solution?

As it comes to DIR (and as far as I got it on the rescue class) - ditchable weight is kind of a must - is it not correct? I see Tobin's point that it will not help a lot =)

Considering all the above, would 17lbs wing be sufficient or 20 would be a better choice (my current BCD is shocking 40lbs).

 

[cool_hardware52]

In salt water, yes.



In fresh water with a mask, snorkel, and fins (without booties), and a swimsuit I am 2 pounds positive.

Wow. Very few people are positive in fresh water.

The fact remains that over weighted is a bad thing.

Over weighted with non ditchable ballast is even worse.

I make a living by selling goods, not by saying no to potential buyers.

I need a damn good reason to say no, but when presented with applications that have the potential to be unsafe I have a responsibility to decline the sale. That's not going to change.

Tobin

 

[dmaziuk]

Are you snugging the weight pouches on the tank bands up against the plate/wing? Obviously the farther away from the plate (and your body) they are, the more they would tend to roll you over.

Yup. Tried that, like them on the front much better.