Help me write a letter

[victorzamora]

I would start by talking with them. Then go from there, depending on their response. But that's just me.

I did. He told me it was just a recreational cave dive, and that it's totally safe....and there's no need to worry because they took it slow. I think he's really ignorant to the dangers. That's why I'm giving him this chance. I'm trying to draft a letter that is a good last-chance to this guy....educating him on the dangers of what he's doing, explaining how truly awful it is, and pleading that he stop. If he doesn't accept it, then that's all the talking to him that can be done. Also, he's decided to continue doing it consciously even AFTER knowing how awful it is.

Kate, I know this guy. We DID talk. He told me I was wrong, nobody died in that cave, and that it's fine for recreational divers to do a dive to the gate. I told him that he was wrong, rec divers die there all the time. He said it was fine, there was only one tube in and out so it was safe. I'd like to try to inform him otherwise in a stern, mature, succinct manner.....and let him choose his own fate.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

But there is a difference if you are a dive professional.

All agencies I am aware of require us to report standards violations by other professionals. Not doing so is a standards violation and puts us in jeopardy of discipline. Posting those violations here on a public forum also may open the reporting person up to legal action if there is an accident and it comes out in discovery that someone was aware of this and said nothing when they could have or in the case of a dive pro, should have.

Whether or not they are ultimately cleared is irrelevant. A lawyer using a shotgun approach is going to make it necessary for the person with knowledge they did not share to defend themselves. And that costs money. A dive pro who does not is likely to find out his/her insurance company is going to say good luck with that. You knew, said nothing, you're on your own.

Some seem to think this is a bit extreme. I don't. It is not my job to police other instructors. It is the agencies job and the only way they can do that is if they are aware of those violations.
Simply talking to the offending instructor is sometimes effective. It may also make them more careful to hide their behavior thus putting others at risk in ways that are more hidden.
Better to do what the standards require and allow the agency to handle it. Not only from a standards viewpoint but from a moral and ethical one as well.

 

[Nuribromanski]

know ur defamation law before u start talking about someone else business, even if ur trying to help keep ppl safe and are 1000% right. JMHO.

 

[Scott]

I see little benefit of drafting a letter to someone you have already directly spoken to. He will ignore the text "you're going to kill someone" just as he did when you told him "rec divers die there all the time." You are not going the "save" him.
Draft the letter to every agency you know he is a member of. Doing that just may save someone.

 

[lv2dive]

I stand by my previous comments. Have a conversation, then take it from there. In this particular case, it's clear that you don't think Vortex is a "safe" recreational cavern/cave (I have never been there to have an opinion one way or another). Since you have had the conversation, and you think he acted inappropriately, if I were in your shoes and I felt that strongly, I'd figure out how to "take it from there" - with my end goal in mind the whole time. I have to caveat this whole thing, however, by saying that I seriously doubt you are going to change this guy's mind through a letter.

OW divers dive in "safe caves" or "caverns" every day in FL at the Ballroom at Ginnie Springs and at Blue Grotto... these are two places I can speak to, with which I am familiar. (Let's not even start on Mexico) I will argue every day and twice on Sunday about how OW divers need to stay out of the Ear and the Eye at Ginnie, because it is SO EASY to get in trouble there, but personally I am not going to argue about the Ballroom or about Blue Grotto. Heck, I'll admit I went into the Ballroom before I was cavern certified - someone can just slap me about the head with split fins now! My thought is that this instructor thinks this room at Vortex falls into these categories.

And I would be willing to bet there are an *awful* lot of OW instructors taking divers into Vortex... as discussed, the options at this point are to write a letter (which I believe would fall on "deaf" eyes), publish his name on the boards (I'd be careful there, libel laws are interesting - what you saw on that video and what *I* saw on that video are NOT the same <G>) or to report him (which would address liability issues but IMHO not do anything in the long run bc there would be an awful lot of instructors in trouble for taking people into "safe" overhead environments.) I'm not being very helpful am I?

Let me ask a different question.. what is the end goal? I mentioned this earlier - I wouldn't do anything unless I think it is ultimately going to help accomplish my end goal. I am assuming in this case your primary goals is really to get this guy to stop taking divers into the cave at Vortex... If so, I'd be looking at this slightly differently, given that none of the above-mentioned options would accomplish that goal.

What could? Maybe - one thought would be talking to someone HE respects and who has the same opinion about OW divers in the cavern/cave Vortex, and seeing if THAT PERSON can convince him... THAT may get something done. That is one thought off the top of my head, I'm sure there are better ideas.

Ah well, enough on this subject. Clearly, I need to get work on laundry and bill-paying and stop using SB as a procrastination vehicle/mechanism!

 

[Dive-aholic]

I did. He told me it was just a recreational cave dive, and that it's totally safe....and there's no need to worry because they took it slow. I think he's really ignorant to the dangers. That's why I'm giving him this chance. I'm trying to draft a letter that is a good last-chance to this guy....educating him on the dangers of what he's doing, explaining how truly awful it is, and pleading that he stop. If he doesn't accept it, then that's all the talking to him that can be done. Also, he's decided to continue doing it consciously even AFTER knowing how awful it is.

Kate, I know this guy. We DID talk. He told me I was wrong, nobody died in that cave, and that it's fine for recreational divers to do a dive to the gate. I told him that he was wrong, rec divers die there all the time. He said it was fine, there was only one tube in and out so it was safe. I'd like to try to inform him otherwise in a stern, mature, succinct manner.....and let him choose his own fate.

His response to you only goes to show that he does not know Vortex very well. There is not only a solution tube there. There are small areas along the walls where divers could easily go into in a zero visibility situation and not make it out before running out of gas. There is also an area in the Piano Room that branches off and goes farther into the cave. The depth is also an issue in that gas gets consumed a lot faster at 100' than it does at 30'. He needs to be reported. I don't know who you're referring to but I will venture to guess he is also not an NACD instructor as he claims. I know the ones who teach in the panhandle and I'm pretty certain none of them would be doing this.

 

[Omisson]

Huh. I believe you. He told me otherwise. Either way, the violations have gotten worse and I'm at the verge of reporting him.


As far as the Vortex incident goes, I believe he's not an Instructor yet....but a DM, however I'm fairly sure the Instructor has condoned/taught/ordered this to be done.

Victor,

The NACD and NSS-CDS both list all active instructors on their website AND the level they can instruct to (cavern, intro, full).

You can verify and call him out.


Dan

---------- Post added April 9th, 2014 at 12:26 AM ----------

I did. He told me it was just a recreational cave dive, and that it's totally safe....and there's no need to worry because they took it slow. I think he's really ignorant to the dangers. That's why I'm giving him this chance. I'm trying to draft a letter that is a good last-chance to this guy....educating him on the dangers of what he's doing, explaining how truly awful it is, and pleading that he stop. If he doesn't accept it, then that's all the talking to him that can be done. Also, he's decided to continue doing it consciously even AFTER knowing how awful it is.

Kate, I know this guy. We DID talk. He told me I was wrong, nobody died in that cave, and that it's fine for recreational divers to do a dive to the gate. I told him that he was wrong, rec divers die there all the time. He said it was fine, there was only one tube in and out so it was safe. I'd like to try to inform him otherwise in a stern, mature, succinct manner.....and let him choose his own fate.

Victor,

In your letter I'd recommend citing the standards and cavern/cave regs of the agency you know he teaches for -there is a lot of wiggle room if he is conducting an "adventure dive" for example.

If you get him to commit in written response that he was in that particular cave/cavern with OW students not in proper form, it goes a long way. Also do you have vortex' specs, how deep is the line run, is it a cavern and cave deeper in? What does the NSS consider it? All this impacts whether standards were broken... And they differ agency to agency.

Dan-O

 

[TSandM]

I'd frame the letter around the idea that you were so personally distressed by what you saw that you can't let it go. Describe watching the divers, and thinking about siltouts and getting lost, and how unhappy you would be to have to help with a diver recovery. Maybe talk about cave training, and how the instructors go out of their way to impress students with how quickly a situation can go from simple to horrible . . . and how scary it is when you are doing a lost line drill and you can't find the line. Don't be accusatory -- this guy has already shown he doesn't react well to being confronted. Be sad and worried and maybe offer to connect him with some good cave instructors or some good training.

If somebody gets that kind of letter and either doesn't respond, or responds poorly, they thoroughly deserve to be reported to their shop and their agency.

 

[Akroedge540]

Perfect way to get a point across. I like it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[chillyinCanada]

I kind of liked Kate's last post. The problem with sending him a letter, no matter how well written nor how it is received, is that you may receive no reply. In that case, you won't know if his response is FU or ya, I'd better smarten up.

You mustn't reveal his name here and don't pm anyone his name either. No one knows where this may go.

You are in a rock and a hard place my friend. I believe you will make the best decision possible for everyone involved. Try not to forget that you are one of those that could be hurt.

Is there anyway to know when he'll be out there with students in the cave on a fun dive? If so bring along some professionally certified buddies to document and support and report. Ya, I realize that leaves open the potential for that to be the time he loses a diver or two but probably won't be. And then you'll have all the support required to save any of his future potential victims and protect yourself and your family too.

Perhaps this is also a good time to start an awareness campaign. Get other divers of a like mind involved along with the dive ops. Public pressure to remind the newbies what they should already know just from reading their materials.

Best of luck.