Help me write a letter

[Doubler]

This is one of the reasons people die in caves. It has been happening for years. Back in the 80's a group from Tennessee (I believe) had completed their "Open Water" at Troy and Peacock. A month or so later they were back for Advanced and decided to come down a couple days early to get in a few dives. Four of them died in Royal. Agencies should make rules that the only training done in caverns and caves is Cavern and Cave diving. People go where they are comfortable, train in a quarry most of your follow on dive are made in a quarry. Train in a cave or spring with a cave and that is where you go. Human nature, clear water, no sharks, hidden death.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

If you want the training agency to do something about it, whether that be warn them, pull their teaching credentials, or require some retraining etc you must file a formal complaint in writing to the agency.

• You must have the person's name & cert number, but in this case you state the name is very unique and also you have no number. The office at Vortex will have his cert number. Perhaps calling them would help.
• You must write a detailed account of what you saw so the agency can clearly understand the standards violations you are complaining of. You must have the date and the time of day included in the narrative. The more detail the better.
• This narrative should be unemotional and simply state the facts.
• My suggestion also is to not include your own personal prejudices in the narrative. People considering the narrative will not be swayed by your personal feelings or your passion. Just the facts! If there is any hint of a personal vendetta between two parties the complaint is scrutinized even more.
• Other people who witnessed this should also send in their own narrative in their own words.
• The agencies believe in due process and believe that people are innocent until proven guilty, as it should be. They too are cognizant of the fact that some lawyer is waiting in the wings to sue any and everybody for the least wrongdoing.

In my position as training director for the CDS we deal with these type complaints periodically and the above is a lot of what we consider. I expect Rob Neto will agree with this as he is training director for the NACD and he has to deal with QA complaints also.

I applaud you for considering this action, we need more people willing to call these behaviors out so as to make our sport safer.

If you need help, call me or Rob (I don't mind volunteering his help to you )

 

[Redshift]

I'd also add to the letter documentation that supports what you told him (that there had been deaths at that site, the breach of standards, etc) and, if it's a digital letter, you can attach links and videos of the dangers of untrained divers in overhead environments.

OW divers dive in "safe caves" or "caverns" every day in FL at the Ballroom at Ginnie Springs and at Blue Grotto...

In those places are the STOP signs at the entrance of the cavern or further in?

 

[lv2dive]

In the places referenced in the quote you excerpted, I do not believe there are stop signs. The cave (past the cavern zone) at Ginnie/Jenny (the "Ballroom") is gated off and inaccessible - the rest of the system is accessed via other entrances. Unless something has changed at BG since I've been there, I believe that the Cave entrance is separate from the recreational cavern/cave area.

But TBH, I don't dive either of those systems* frequently, so someone else may have more up-to-date information.

In those places are the STOP signs at the entrance of the cavern or further in?

*By systems, I mean Ginnie/Jenny (the "Ballroom") and BG - I certainly do dive the Ear/Eye at Ginnie frequently enough!

 

[victorzamora]

So, there are two different people here. The main one is a DM, possibly OWSI, in Vortex. The other is a Full Cave instructor I simply brought up shortly in reference to Jim Wyatt. I apologize for the confusion and getting it off track in that direction, it's should've been handled by phone or PM separately from this. They're at two different shops in two different states.

In Vortex, there is a "Grim Reaper" sign at the edge of the cavern zone. I don't see anything wrong with diving to there. There's another yellow STOP sign closer to the gate. I believe the gate is p278' beyond the cavern sign at a depth of over 100ft. Those are two violations, and actually takes it beyond many Intro to Cave standards. This is drastically different from the mexican cenotes and the ballroom. This was a real cave dive in every way.

Kate, as far as talking to him....I did. I don't think he understood what I was trying to tell him, but a "stern talking-to" is very out of place on the shore of Vortex. I was hoping to have very concrete evidence of what I had to say, and not lecture the divemaster in front of too many students. I made it clear in front of everybody that cared to listen that that cave is where many an under-trained (and even well trained) diver has gone to perish, and that it's not a joke. It's a proper CAVE dive, not a "Cavern" dive, and there's nothing "rec" about it. I made it clear that they violated MANY standards, including depth, penetration, number of lights, number of divers, and certification level....and then clarified that beyond that it was stupid and irresponsible. I wish I would've mentioned that I didn't want to be on the recovery team if something were to go wrong.

Kate, my end goal is to get him to stop taking people in there. If they knew what they had done, I can't imagine they would've done it or that they'd do it again. They're being sold on the idea that it's safe. I believe the DM in question is being told by his boss, a Full Cave diver, that it's a safe dive. I'm hoping that this will dissuade him. If I don't get positive response back, I'll have to escalate it.

Lynne, thanks for your post. I know you saw part of this on Facebook the other day, but I'm glad to see you write what you did. It makes me feel better that I'm not crazy. I feel like I owe the guy one real chance to change before I start reporting. I DO have access to more video, which you saw a still of on Facebook, and I can write down dates and times and have timestamps for all/most of it. I'm putting together a composite collection of what was what, and will try to get some witness statements in writing to corroborate. I'm not dumb, I'm not going to let this slide or let it go past me. I've seen instructors violate standards in ways that are "frustrating" or "annoying" (who hasn't) but watching that caliber of diver being led in a group that big into a cave? I just can't.

As far as slander and libel, I think it's absolutey ridiculous that you can get sued in this country for crap like that.....but I am trying to keep this vague-ish and handle this in the "appropriate" manner.

 

[Redshift]

Maybe this is a stupid question, after all it's the USA... but is it possible to be sued for stating something that happened in a public space and in view of other people, for which you have evidence and supported by facts (accidents and deaths in that place, diving standards, etc)? I guess one can get sued for anything, but would this be a real concern or would it be an easy case to defend against?

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Easily defended perhaps. But expensive to defend against. This country is in desperate need of tort reform.

 

[ucfdiver]

The agencies will rarely do anything about it. Word of mouth is most effective.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

The agencies will rarely do anything about it. Word of mouth is most effective.

The agencies will do something about it if more than hearsay is submitted to them. Whining, moaning and personal opinions accomplish nothing. Facts, dates, eyewitness observations are required.

You blame the agencies, I blame the eyewitnesses too afraid to report what they see, using their own name.

 

[victorzamora]

You blame the agencies, I blame the eyewitnesses too afraid to report what they see, using their own name.

I think it's both. I know I'm one of the eyewitnesses you blame, and I do, too. However, it really is hard for me to make that decision. That's why I'm hoping to have that decision made for me by contacting him and letting his reaction be the ultimate decision. However, many agencies turn a blind eye to things and allow instructors to continue in unbelievably unsafe practices.

On the matter I discussed with you, I have facts, dates, times, and numbers for all of it. I don't want to put my name on it, though. This, I have facts, dates, names, and times for all of it, and I don't mind putting my name on it if that's what it comes to. However, none of what I've said was meant as whining, complaining, or has been full of personal opinions (other than the fact that they were AWFUL divers, but it's easily corroborated by witnesses...and not hard to see).