Has anyone ever gone back?

[Scubastud16]

I'm with Brian.

Off the wall, are you seriously an instructor? All of that stuff you wrote is beyond my comprehension....

 

[offthewall1]

It may seem a bit out there... but... it is all logical. I'll agree the likelihood of cutting yourself is slim at best... and the pull dumps on BCD's can tend to border on obsessive... but the inability to ditch weight at the surface is very real - like it or not.

I know people who are perfectly weighted with nothing more than a SS plate and a steel tank... which together at the surface weigh between -10 to -14lbs depending. That is a significant amount of weight. Given most accidents occur on the surface... many ending in drownings when a panicked diver fails to ditch their weights... I would say a panicked diver with a BP/wing that cannot be inflated due to puncture or malfunction or simple forgetfulness during full blown panic is at a substantially greater risk of drowning then a person wearing a ditchable weight belt or a weight integrated bcd. I would also argue that a panicked diver may think to ditch his or her weight belt or weight pockets... but that same panicked diver who has a fear of drowning is not going to be thinking to remove their one source of flotation - which is their BP/Wing or BCD nor to give it up in the open ocean if it contains a tank with air on the back of it.

For tec divers with significant training and confidence this might not be true... but I'm seeing more and more newbies buy BP/Wing set ups without knowing the full meaning and differences in using them. I see more face plants from improperly trimmed divers at the surface as the BP/wings push them face down on the surface... another panic causing sensation on an already stressed diver.

Yes... not only am I an Instructor... but a damn competent one who thinks far beyond most others on this board. Like it or not... what I say is true.

 

[sheck33]

It may seem a bit out there... but... it is all logical. I'll agree the likelihood of cutting yourself is slim at best... and the pull dumps on BCD's can tend to border on obsessive... but the inability to ditch weight at the surface is very real - like it or not.

I know people who are perfectly weighted with nothing more than a SS plate and a steel tank... which together at the surface weigh between -10 to -14lbs depending. That is a significant amount of weight. Given most accidents occur on the surface... many ending in drownings when a panicked diver fails to ditch their weights... I would say a panicked diver with a BP/wing that cannot be inflated due to puncture or malfunction or simple forgetfulness during full blown panic is at a substantially greater risk of drowning then a person wearing a ditchable weight belt or a weight integrated bcd. I would also argue that a panicked diver may think to ditch his or her weight belt or weight pockets... but that same panicked diver who has a fear of drowning is not going to be thinking to remove their one source of flotation - which is their BP/Wing or BCD nor to give it up in the open ocean if it contains a tank with air on the back of it.

For tec divers with significant training and confidence this might not be true... but I'm seeing more and more newbies buy BP/Wing set ups without knowing the full meaning and differences in using them. I see more face plants from improperly trimmed divers at the surface as the BP/wings push them face down on the surface... another panic causing sensation on an already stressed diver.

Yes... not only am I an Instructor... but a damn competent one who thinks far beyond most others on this board. Like it or not... what I say is true.

First, their only? source of flotation? Last I heard a wetsuit or drysuit with undergarment are pretty damn buoyant. Not to mention a drysuit is an inflate-able backup flotation device.

Second, so the jacket BC is the 'solution' to mask the lack of proper training?
The BP/W is not the problem, don't blame it on the gear, lack of training is the problem.

And anyway, how does diving a BP/W equal 'an inability to ditch weight'?

 

[digital_steve]

didn't the whole "backplate and wings push people face down at the surface' thing get cleared up years ago?

 

[offthewall1]

First, their only? source of flotation? Last I heard a wetsuit or drysuit with undergarment are pretty damn buoyant. Not to mention a drysuit is an inflate-able backup flotation device.

Second, so the jacket BC is the 'solution' to mask the lack of proper training?
The BP/W is not the problem, don't blame it on the gear, lack of training is the problem.

And anyway, how does diving a BP/W equal 'an inability to ditch weight'?

I have seen (and heard of) a variety of reasons why divers die at the surface. Most are experienced divers... many wearing wetsuits and yes - even drysuits. They too have drowned at the surface.

Yes, wetsuits are bouyant... but not buoyant enough to keep a struggling diver in a non-working BP/wing which is -10 to - 14lbs head above water. Consider worse yet a drysuit diver with a flooded suit.

Yes - a jacket style BCD can mask improper training. While I don't care for that answer - the reality is jacket style BCD's and even some back inflate BCD's are safer to use than BP/wings - especially for newer inexperienced divers.

Use your brain Sherlock... if all your weight is in the plate and tank... you can't just ditch your weight... you've got to ditch the entire unit... leaving yourself on the surface in your wetsuit or drysuit... which would in fact be better then being in a BP/wing and struggling due to the -10 to -14 lbs.

My point earlier was that a panicked diver is not going to ditch their unit... which is precisely why they are more dangerous.

 

[offthewall1]

didn't the whole "backplate and wings push people face down at the surface' thing get cleared up years ago?

If it ended - no one told the manufacturers. They still make bP/wings and back inflates that face plant everyone. They all do this unless counter-weighted (trimmed out.)

My problem is that you do need more advanced training with these... trainign which few people bother to receive. They read on boards like this one how its the "in" thing to dive... go out and buy them and never get that training.

As an example - a guy called me today wanting to buy a DR Transplate/Wing. He just got certified - in a jacket style BCD... but he read in a forum that the BP/wing was the way to go. I told him he needed some addtional training time with the set up and should work with someone knowledgeable in BP/ wings before using one. I wasn't simply trying to sell him a class - he lives in a different country. He said he'd look into it ... but he was buying it to keep on his sailboat for diving in the carribean a couple times a year.

Does he really need a BP/Wing for shallow warm water diving a couple times a year?
Does he need to buy it without knowing the least thing about trimming it out?

Get Real Guys...

 

[digital_steve]

there must be a ****load of unhappy bp/w divers out there... having their faces constantly shoved in the water on the surface
i wonder why they're so quiet? they must be ashamed of not taking the further training... damn and blast them.

 

[Damselfish]

I think, like many things, this is self selecting. Hopefully before someone makes a major gear change or choice they would understand the pros and cons, try it if they can, and only do it if it makes sense for them. So I'd kind of expect most people who make that change to stick with it. If they're switching because it solves a problem they have, they'll naturally be happy.

If someone changes for no logical reason but just because lots of people said it was great and they should, there's a higher chance they'd dislike it and want something else. But I suspect many people here have read plenty on the pros and cons and just don't see it as a configuration that makes sense for them. I'm in that camp, most of the often stated advantages solve problems I don't have, and the disadvantages seem likely to give me issues I don't have now. About the only reason I personally would look into a BP/W would be to get something as light and compact as possible for travel and perhaps quicker drying, but that's not enough reason to spend money to replace what I already have that works fine, and then have to deal with new issues. Maybe I'd look into it if my BC bit it.

 

[Boxcar Overkill]

I know people who are perfectly weighted with nothing more than a SS plate and a steel tank... which together at the surface weigh between -10 to -14lbs depending. That is a significant amount of weight.

In your 10-14 lbs analysis you don't factor in the natural buoyancy of the diver. The absolute weight of the plate/tank isn't as important as how buoyant the diver+gear is in the water.

That's the whole point of getting your weight down right. For you to be neutral at the end of your dive, you must be about 5 pounds negative at the beginning of the dive (assuming a single tank, as in your scenario). It doesn't matter how much the SS plate and tank weights, in absolute terms. He is only net 5 pounds negative buoyant, and that's what's important.

The end result is that if a single tank diver is perfectly weighted, no matter how much gear he has on, he is only 5 pounds negative at the beginning of his dive, and 0 pounds negative at the end of his dive. Either of those would be fairly easy to survive in the event of a wing failure.

But it's easy enough to test. At the beginning of your dive let all the air out of your wing. If you can swim around, you can survive a wing failure. If you can't, you better think of something new.

EDIT: Not that you didn't already know all of that. I was just expanding a bit. While I don't completely agree with your original point, I do see where you're coming from. And I'm not a pro or anything at any rate, so don't get your dive advice off the street

 

[Boxcar Overkill]

I think he is saying its a balloon with an attachment point...

I agree, but I don't think I knew that until I put together my first back plate and wing, ironically enough.