Has anyone been denied a c-card ?

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radagalf once bubbled...
At the dive shop I have just recently completed my DM at, and am DMing at as of now, I have seen them deny cert-cards to quite a few people. However, if the person is genuinely trying his best, sometimes they are asked if they would like to come back during the next OW pool sessions, and practice their skills again, thus giving them the extra time to develop their skills (and most of the time it is just developing their confidence).

Recently, a young man didn't make his cert as in the open water dives, he was unable to take off his mask. The first time he half-flooded his mask, he paniced and bloted for the service with the instructor holding onto him keeping him at a safe ascent rate. We talked with him after the dive, and told him that he was welcome to come on the dives after that, and to do the skills he felt comfortable with, but we would ask himfirst if he wanted to do them. In later dives, you go on to the full-mask flood, and later the mask removal and replacement. Each time he was asked if he wanted to do either of these skills, he declined. Although he did all the other skills very well (better than most of the other students I must say), he was declined his card.

The above is just one example, in my 4 months at the shop, I must've seen at least 4 or 5 people denied their cards (4OW and 1AOW).

First let me start by saying that this is not intended as a finger pointing, you did bad, rant.
The premise of this board is to educate. If the story of the young man with mask clearing problems is, as you posted, than you and your instructor were breaking PADI standards. PADI standards are specific on what skills must be completed on what dives, and what skills are "flexible" and can be completed on any of dives 2,3, or 4. Mask clearing is a skill that "must" be completed on specific dives. A partial "and" complete flood an clear on dive 2, a full flood and clear, on dive 3, an a complete removal, replace and clear on dive 4. Since the PADI course is performance based, the standard dictate that all "required" skills must be completed during a dive for that dive to be complete. You must "satisfactorily" complete dive 1 before you do dive 2, and complete dive 2 before 3. Since the young man did "not" satisfactorily complete the Partial flood and clear, and thus did not complete dive 2, he should not have been allowed to participate in the remaining dives until he completed the skill. This was not only breaking PADI standards but also put the diver at risk of injury. Since he already showed a predisposition to panic, what would have happened in the next dives if he had his mask flood unexpectedly? If this diver had panicked and injured himself on any of the subsequent dives, you and your instructor would not only be liable, you would also not be covered by your insurance. Something to think about!
Back on subject, I have denied certs at all levels, OW on up. I have always offered to work with the student until they could master their deficient skills. I have only charged for the extra help on special occasions, i.e. if a diver shows up still drunk from the night before for their final dives! In most cases the person is willing to make the effort to work through their problems, even if it will take more time. A small percentage realize that diving is not for them and bow out.
 
Cheers Rooster,
I was more concerned with the panicked diver than thinking about other poor teaching characteristics.

Rad, have you DM'ed for any other instructors or is this instructor you DM instructor too?

Cheers and no finger pointing from me either.
 
I see Rooster's point, and I think these posts of mine and yours are educating (maybe I misread into that comment though):
Rooster once bubbled...


The premise of this board is to educate.

Maybe you're not learning much as you know it already through your training and experiences, but I'm learning. :)

And I have DM'ed for a variety of instructors, this was my first time with this particular one though
 
radagalf once bubbled...
I see Rooster's point, and I think these posts of mine and yours are educating (maybe I misread into that comment though):


Maybe you're not learning much as you know it already through your training and experiences, but I'm learning. :)

And I have DM'ed for a variety of instructors, this was my first time with this particular one though

OK my bad, maybe I should have said the premise of this board is to "Learn"
I don't know it all. Even though I have been doing this for over 12 years and have certified over 700 divers, I'm still learning. Anyone who thinks they know it all or that they don't need to learn, is fooling them selves. I learn every time I do an OW class I have learned great teaching tricks from 12 year old students. I've learned from good and bad instructors. And I have learned quite a bit from this board. Some time I learn what I should not do. I mostly lurk on this and other boards to learn. Occasionally I pipe in if I feel what I have to say may be useful in some way. You can take the info I posted and use it or discard it; it's up to you. One last thing, as always, this is just my opinion, your mileage may, and probably will, differ.

Dive Safe,
Rooster
MI 56521
 
Rooster once bubbled...

Since the PADI course is performance based, the standard dictate that all "required" skills must be completed during a dive for that dive to be complete.
Off topic, and not to be taken personally. Here I go.
This makes me cringe! Please name a scuba course that is not "performance based". That's just PADI buzz words, and NOT the reason, IMO that specific skills belong to specific dives. You are absolutely correct in saying that no matter what, we are obligated to follow the standard sof whatever agency we are certifying through.

Neil
 

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