I don't think roak is telling you "it has to be better because someone else thinks it is," I think he's saying "it's worth considering because a lot of already excellent divers seem to think it's the cat's ass."
Halcyon files for "DIR" Registered Trademark
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I don't think roak is telling you "it has to be better because someone else thinks it is," I think he's saying "it's worth considering because a lot of already excellent divers seem to think it's the cat's ass."
I know it is asking a lot of a fellow who makes most of his decisions based on emotion... but make an exception and try to look at your statement above logically.
You admit that you make most of you decisions based on how you feel. I had already surmised that and stated that your decision not to take GUE training was a wise one.
GUE training is very logical... IMO you would neither like nor excel in it.
That wasn't bashing... that was a statement of fact (which you agree with) and an assessment of your compatibility with GUE training based upon that fact and my exerience with GUE.
A couple more points:
Halcyon has competitors that GUE doesn't. OMS is apparently introducing a new line of "DIR" equipment.. I don't see PADI with a DIR class in the works. They're protecting themselves from OMS and maybe even Oxycheq or Dive Rite - or any gear manufacturere who can just put out some gear and call it DIR.
Halcyon might have more capital and financial ability to protect the TM. If they get the trademark they're going to have to actively pursue those who use the trademark if they want to keep it. GUE or JJ himself might not want to be financially responsible for that.
Right from OMS' website:
OMS is a competitor to Halcyon, not GUE. GUE won't want to sue OMS if they plaster "DIR" on their gear, but Halcyon will.
Maybe GUE will have something to say if TDI introduces a DIR class though..
Halcyon has competitors that GUE doesn't. OMS is apparently introducing a new line of "DIR" equipment.. I don't see PADI with a DIR class in the works. They're protecting themselves from OMS and maybe even Oxycheq or Dive Rite - or any gear manufacturere who can just put out some gear and call it DIR.
Halcyon might have more capital and financial ability to protect the TM. If they get the trademark they're going to have to actively pursue those who use the trademark if they want to keep it. GUE or JJ himself might not want to be financially responsible for that.
Right from OMS' website:
OMS is a competitor to Halcyon, not GUE. GUE won't want to sue OMS if they plaster "DIR" on their gear, but Halcyon will.
Maybe GUE will have something to say if TDI introduces a DIR class though..
Not only does Dive Rite have a 2" crotch strap, they also have a 2" Hogarthian crotch strap, and have for some time.
So in essence, asking someone to get me a Coke when I really mean just get me some sort of carbonated soft drink is a trademark infringement.
And of course, those that have never taken a DIRF course are the ones yelling "Foul!" the loudest.
DIR is a HOLISTIC approach. He did not try to trademark "Hogarthian." It may all be a hodge podge of different innovations, but he is trademarking the combined result. There are hundreds of examples of things that have been trademarked, or patented that were developed as a combination of existing ideas. I've never seen him lay claim to the hogarthian style being his own "invention." In fact, he references William Main as the inventor of that. But he is the one that combined them all into one ideal. That is what he is trademarking.
GQMedic once bubbled...
Ya know, maybe I will go ahead and take the DIR-F class, if nothing else, I'll be incorporating those diciplens into my own dive style. But to be forced to use Halcyon to be DIR or to take the class (I'm presuming GUE will insist on Halcyon EVERYTHING), that's a crock!
Yes, Mr. Jones, may I have another glass? :kicker:
You wont be forced to use Halcyon anything. I took my DIRF class using a Transpac II. And I passed! There was also a guy in my class who had just about every piece of equipment Halcyon made. He dropped out because he couldnt handle it. Maybe you should read my trip report on it some time, it might give you a better perspective. Part of the problem is you are making too many presumptions, and trying to argue based on them. You would have a much better reception if you gathered some facts.
detroit diver
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I think some of the rantings here about the trademark filing have to do with emotions, rather than form or fact.
Let's for a moment not call this "Doing It Right".
Let's call it "Bob's Diving System" or "BDS"
Now Halcyon has filed a trademark protection for "BDS"
Would the essence of this thread exist? Would any of the "BDS" bashing threads exist?
My guess is that the answer is a loud NO.
People don't like to be made to feel if they're not doing it right, that they are somehow doing it wrong. But get over it. It is a slogan. Plain and simple. A brilliant one. Look at the amount of time that some people spend talking about the words "Doing it Right" and not on the substance of what it actually is.
(As a side note, I placed a class notification on rec.scuba for a DIR class that was being held in Michigan. The anti-DIR ranters out there maintained that thread for over 2 weeks, and the exposure for the class was something that I could not have done myself. It's like having a television new's crew come out to your business to do a story on a new product. You couldn't pay for that type of advertising! Rant on folks!)
Halcyon thinks it owns the slogan and filed for the right to maintain it's ownership. I would guess that they will licence GUE to use it if they are awarded the trademark. Same as every other company does that owns a trademark or patent. Nothing more, nothing less.
If it makes you feel better, call it Bob's Diving System. And get over it.
No offence to the Bob's out there!
Let's for a moment not call this "Doing It Right".
Let's call it "Bob's Diving System" or "BDS"
Now Halcyon has filed a trademark protection for "BDS"
Would the essence of this thread exist? Would any of the "BDS" bashing threads exist?
My guess is that the answer is a loud NO.
People don't like to be made to feel if they're not doing it right, that they are somehow doing it wrong. But get over it. It is a slogan. Plain and simple. A brilliant one. Look at the amount of time that some people spend talking about the words "Doing it Right" and not on the substance of what it actually is.
(As a side note, I placed a class notification on rec.scuba for a DIR class that was being held in Michigan. The anti-DIR ranters out there maintained that thread for over 2 weeks, and the exposure for the class was something that I could not have done myself. It's like having a television new's crew come out to your business to do a story on a new product. You couldn't pay for that type of advertising! Rant on folks!)
Halcyon thinks it owns the slogan and filed for the right to maintain it's ownership. I would guess that they will licence GUE to use it if they are awarded the trademark. Same as every other company does that owns a trademark or patent. Nothing more, nothing less.
If it makes you feel better, call it Bob's Diving System. And get over it.
No offence to the Bob's out there!
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Hey...
I want more variety and more competition in my DIR gear choices...not less.
SA
GQ...your posts often make me smile...so definitely keep it up.
And...that wasn't the real Uncle Pug that posted those remarks...it's a weekend and he's out divin'...must have been a Pug poser!
I want more variety and more competition in my DIR gear choices...not less.
SA
GQ...your posts often make me smile...so definitely keep it up.
And...that wasn't the real Uncle Pug that posted those remarks...it's a weekend and he's out divin'...must have been a Pug poser!
Thanks, that's it exactly. Perhaps in the future I should use smaller, simplier words and some of these folks would understand.
But I doubt it.
Roak
All y'all guys need to familiarize youself with some history, before you all go apoplectic.
This is all from memory, so if you can cite any innacuracies, feel free, and thank you.
First, DIR predates Halcyon and GUE.
DIR was derived from WKPP gear configurations created mainly under Parker Turner, but common use of the term "Doing It Right" was coined by George Irvine.
The project director at Wakulla decides what's DIR.
Whatever input he may have from his associates, there's "DIR", and "other", and he's the man.
He is not involved with GUE or Halcyon, and indeed, has recently given the appearance of distancing himself from both operations. The reason is primarily because he doesn't like seeing anyone else's name in print more than his own, but I digress.
The point is, JJ can trademark what he wants, but he can't control what DIR actually "is", which is why I feel he has motives other than being discussed.
Halcyon was started because ready made "true DIR" gear was scarce or unavailable, and specific requests to gear manufacturers like OMS and Dive Rite went unanswered.
About the only gear they make (except the rebreather) that's significantly unique is the Scout and the Pioneer wing, with it's donut bladder design, and I don't even know if they invented that.
There's alternatives that are DIR compliant for almost every DIR gear requirement.
George's gear list (note Halcyon alternatives):
http://www.wkpp.org/articles/Gear/gearlist.htm
GUE gear history/philosophy:
http://www.gue.com/equipment/equip-considerations.shtml
http://www.gue.com/equipment/jj-hogarth.shtml
Gear selection Guidelines:
http://www.gue.com/equipment/equip-anatomy.shtml
If you don't already know all of the above, your opinion rings pretty hollow, although it's your right to have it.
In my opinion, "The Big (marketing) Conspiracy" isn't an excellent example of forward thinking. JJ could make and market as good or better COMMONLY ACCEPTED scuba gear and make a fortune. He is, for a fact, one of the most accomplished scuba divers alive. Instead, he targets an unusually small part of the market place. I'd say the market share he seeks is OBVIOUSLY finite.
As far as advanced techical diving goes, in days gone by, extremely experienced divers created their own kit by trial and error. Hogarthian/DIR was the first widely recognised formalization of these requirements. DIR makes this gear readily available to the average diver, instead of you taking 3 years and 200 dives to figure it out, and maybe even live. For Halcyon to zero in on this need, precludes them from the vast majority of the dive world.
About the trade mark, those of you familiar with recent progress and events in the scuba industry will remember some specific encroachment on the DIR principle, both by other training agencies, and other gear manufacterers, and it's my opinion that JJ is seeking to protect DIR, more than covet it, from interpretation and degradation, lest the weaker minds become confused. It's apparent to me that the vast majority of detractors, and a signficant proportion of supporters, have not bothered themselves to actively research the topic at hand (as apparent from this thread) extensively, and thusly are poor judges of what actually "is" and "isn't" DIR.
After all, there's nothing to stop the industry from declaring the new "DIR" Force Fins, or PADI "DIR" Scuba Diver, or OMS "DIR" Bungie Wings....
This is all from memory, so if you can cite any innacuracies, feel free, and thank you.
First, DIR predates Halcyon and GUE.
DIR was derived from WKPP gear configurations created mainly under Parker Turner, but common use of the term "Doing It Right" was coined by George Irvine.
The project director at Wakulla decides what's DIR.
Whatever input he may have from his associates, there's "DIR", and "other", and he's the man.
He is not involved with GUE or Halcyon, and indeed, has recently given the appearance of distancing himself from both operations. The reason is primarily because he doesn't like seeing anyone else's name in print more than his own, but I digress.
The point is, JJ can trademark what he wants, but he can't control what DIR actually "is", which is why I feel he has motives other than being discussed.
Halcyon was started because ready made "true DIR" gear was scarce or unavailable, and specific requests to gear manufacturers like OMS and Dive Rite went unanswered.
About the only gear they make (except the rebreather) that's significantly unique is the Scout and the Pioneer wing, with it's donut bladder design, and I don't even know if they invented that.
There's alternatives that are DIR compliant for almost every DIR gear requirement.
George's gear list (note Halcyon alternatives):
http://www.wkpp.org/articles/Gear/gearlist.htm
GUE gear history/philosophy:
http://www.gue.com/equipment/equip-considerations.shtml
http://www.gue.com/equipment/jj-hogarth.shtml
Gear selection Guidelines:
http://www.gue.com/equipment/equip-anatomy.shtml
If you don't already know all of the above, your opinion rings pretty hollow, although it's your right to have it.
In my opinion, "The Big (marketing) Conspiracy" isn't an excellent example of forward thinking. JJ could make and market as good or better COMMONLY ACCEPTED scuba gear and make a fortune. He is, for a fact, one of the most accomplished scuba divers alive. Instead, he targets an unusually small part of the market place. I'd say the market share he seeks is OBVIOUSLY finite.
As far as advanced techical diving goes, in days gone by, extremely experienced divers created their own kit by trial and error. Hogarthian/DIR was the first widely recognised formalization of these requirements. DIR makes this gear readily available to the average diver, instead of you taking 3 years and 200 dives to figure it out, and maybe even live. For Halcyon to zero in on this need, precludes them from the vast majority of the dive world.
About the trade mark, those of you familiar with recent progress and events in the scuba industry will remember some specific encroachment on the DIR principle, both by other training agencies, and other gear manufacterers, and it's my opinion that JJ is seeking to protect DIR, more than covet it, from interpretation and degradation, lest the weaker minds become confused. It's apparent to me that the vast majority of detractors, and a signficant proportion of supporters, have not bothered themselves to actively research the topic at hand (as apparent from this thread) extensively, and thusly are poor judges of what actually "is" and "isn't" DIR.
After all, there's nothing to stop the industry from declaring the new "DIR" Force Fins, or PADI "DIR" Scuba Diver, or OMS "DIR" Bungie Wings....
Spectre
Contributor
Who cares one way or the other about copyrights and patents. It shouldn't be about labels and people telling you what equipment to buy.
If you want to follow DIR, you should understand the reasons behind the approved equipment, and use that understanding to choose your equipment. Some GUE executive walking into a factory and blessing the equipment as DIR doesn't make one lick of difference.
Understand the reasoning behind the gear recommendations; and it doesn't matter what brand it is. This is another situation of making something out of nothing. There is no way GUE is going to start shooting down equipment based on it's brand name. If they do, then their credibility falls through the floor.
Now why it's Halcyon filing the copyright and not GUE, I'm not sure but I'm sure it's based on the nature of how the different entities are designed.
The fact of the matter is I see this as somewhat of a good thing. Too many people are way too hung up on being told what is DIR approved instead of stepping back and thinking things out. By giving GUE some control over DIR labelling, you can prevent some company by claiming something is "DIR complient" when it's not. Those that want to be a lemming can buy all Halcyon, and those that truely understand the reasons and principles can keep going with their wider range of gear choices... no harm... no foul.
Laser
Guest
You hit the nail on the head with this statement. That's what it's all about.
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