Had my first student today

[Edward3c]

I've just read the ISO 24801-3 standard a PADI DM is qualified to.

It's all about dive leading/guiding, with an add on about leading dry divers. But nothing about teaching initial skills, that is the preserve of a Level 2 instructor. A Level 1 instructors can only teach in confined waters, hence why no agency offers it. (I've highlighted teh bit in red that this thread revolves around).

4 Competencies of a recreational scuba diver at level 3 (“Dive leader”)
Scuba divers at level 3 shall be trained such that when assessed in accordance with Clause 11 they are deemed to have sufficient knowledge, skill and experience to plan, organize and conduct their dives and lead other recreational scuba divers in open water.

Scuba divers at level 3 are qualified to:
a) conduct any specialized recreational scuba diving activities for which they have received appropriate training;
b) plan and execute emergency procedures appropriate for the diving environment and activities.

Scuba divers at level 3 may help to control students and improve safety but may not assess or teach any skills or knowledge to students.

In order to be qualified to lead scuba divers who have previously satisfactorily completed an introductory scuba experience in accordance with ISO 11121 on excursions to a maximum of 12 m, scuba divers at level 3 shall receive additional training in accordance with Annex A.

If diving and environmental conditions are significantly different from those previously experienced, a scuba diver at level 3 requires an appropriate orientation with regard to local environmental conditions.

In order to lead scuba divers on dives which have more demanding operational parameters a scuba diver at level 3 shall have appropriate specialized training and experience. Examples of such dives include:
— night dives;
— limited visibility dives;
— dives in underwater currents (e.g. drift dives);
— deep dives;
— wreck dives;
— dry suit dives.

Where further scuba diving instruction is required, in order to meet the above mentioned competencies, this can only be provided by a suitably qualified scuba instructor.

 

[L13]

I've just read the ISO 24801-3 standard a PADI DM is qualified to.

It's all about dive leading/guiding, with an add on about leading dry divers. But nothing about teaching initial skills, that is the preserve of a Level 2 instructor. A Level 1 instructors can only teach in confined waters, hence why no agency not offers it. (I've highlighted teh bit in red that this thread revolves around).

You must be missing something, since the PADI DM is also a "Certified Assistant" for training. The PADI DM training explicitly includes training as an assistant to the instructor, and PADI explicitly includes certain (very limited) classes that a DM can teach.

 

[Scraps]

L13,

Believe what you want. You’re jumping though a whole lot of speculative hoops to create an imaginary scenario in which it’s possible that one particular shop in England might have tailored its DM program to focus more on teaching.

And suppose your imaginations are correct. What does that get you? You still have an instructor in England not complying with agency standards. So I don’t get the point of this rabbit hole you dove into.

You must be missing something, since the PADI DM is also a "Certified Assistant" for training. The PADI DM training explicitly includes training as an assistant to the instructor, and PADI explicitly includes certain (very limited) classes that a DM can teach.

He's not missing anything, but you may be missing the difference between a certified assistant and an assistant instructor.

A divemaster is a certified assistant. His or her presence allows for increasing the ratios.

An assistant instructor is a divemaster who has also attended IDC but who has not taken the two-day IE. This person is allowed to teach initial skills under direct supervision from an instructor.

And that's the problem with the situation our OP was placed in. As a DM trainee, assuming we understand his description correctly, he was asked to do things he shouldn't be asked to do until he is certified as a DM and then goes to IDC.

 

[Edward3c]

You must be missing something, since the PADI DM is also a "Certified Assistant" for training. The PADI DM training explicitly includes training as an assistant to the instructor, and PADI explicitly includes certain (very limited) classes that a DM can teach.

If PADI are expecting their DMs to teach then they are in breach of the ISO Standard, the bit I highlighted in red.

It’s more likely individual PADI training centres are adding lesson/skills training to their DM programme; PADI HQ need to be informed if that is the case as their course's ISO accreditation is at risk of being withdrawn.

 

[L13]

L13,

Believe what you want. You’re jumping though a whole lot of speculative hoops to create an imaginary scenario in which it’s possible that one particular shop in England might have tailored its DM program to focus more on teaching.

No speculation, not hoops, no imagination. Just observation and reading the PADI Instructor Manual.

And suppose your imaginations are correct. What does that get you? You still have an instructor in England not complying with agency standards. So I don’t get the point of this rabbit hole you dove into.

I didn't start those rabbit holes, they were the primary basis many posters used to claim the instructor was violating standards.

I don't claim that the instructor did not in fact violate standards. But I do think many of the things people think the instructor did violated standards, either we don't have evidence actually happened or didn't actually violate standards.

There are hints that some things might have been done in violation of standards. But all the explicit actions listed seem compliant to me. (pre-dive brief, equipment setup, demonstrating previously demonstrated skills, etc.).

He's not missing anything, but you may be missing the difference between a certified assistant and an assistant instructor.

A divemaster is a certified assistant. His or her presence allows for increasing the ratios.

The PADI Instructor Manual lists specific items a Certified Assistant can teach. A Certified Assistant is more than a "Dive Leader."

And that's the problem with the situation our OP was placed in. As a DM trainee, assuming we understand his description correctly, he was asked to do things he shouldn't be asked to do until he is certified as a DM and then goes to IDC.

As a DMT, he should be asked to do things that a certified DM does, while being closely supervised by an instructor. In every other class we ask the trainee to perform task that a certified person is expected to do, but under instructor supervision. Open water students do open water dives before they are certified open water divers. Dry suit divers do dry suit dives before they are dry suit certified. Instructor students instruct students before they are certified instructors. Why do you think DMT's should be different?

 

[L13]

If PADI are expecting their DMs to teach then they are in breach of the ISO Standard, the bit I highlighted in red.

It’s more likely individual PADI training centres are adding lesson/skills training to their DM programme; PADI HQ need to be informed if that is the case as their course's ISO accreditation is at risk of being withdrawn.

Read pg. 31 of the PADI Instructor Manual. There are teaching functions that PADI (not individual dive centers) explicitly allow DM's to teach.

Is it possible that a PADI DM is a fusion of more than 1 ISO standard roles? Maybe they satisfy ISO by meeting both sets of standards.

 

[Edward3c]

Read pg. 31 of the PADI Instructor Manual. There are teaching functions that PADI (not individual dive centers) explicitly allow DM's to teach.

Is it possible that a PADI DM is a fusion of more than 1 ISO standard roles? Maybe they satisfy ISO by meeting both sets of standards.

I don’t need to @Scraps has given an explanation. In BSAC a Dive Leader (ISO 24801-3) cannot teach, but once they have done the Instructor Foundation Course they can under instructor supervision.

 

[Scraps]

Read pg. 31 of the PADI Instructor Manual. There are teaching functions that PADI (not individual dive centers) explicitly allow DM's to teach.

Here, from pg. 31 of the PADI Instructor Manual, is the full list of courses and programs that divemasters can lead/teach without acquiring additional qualifications:

Discover Snorkeling: No breathing of compressed air involved.
Skin Diver: No breathing of compressed air involved.
ReActivate: Working with already-certified divers and leading them on dives.
Discover Local Diving: Leading already-certified divers on local dives.

How is this list relevant?

 

[L13]

Here, from pg. 31 of the PADI Instructor Manual, is the full list of courses and programs that divemasters can lead/teach with no additional qualifications:

Discover Snorkeling: No breathing of compressed air involved.
Skin Diver: No breathing of compressed air involved.
ReActivate: Working with already-certified divers and leading them on dives.
Discover Local Diving: Leading certified divers on local dives.

How is this list relevant?

They all involve teaching? And that is just the list of what they can teach independently.

On pg. 16, it says that a DM is a "Certified Assistant." In a number of places, the manual states teaching functions a "Certified Assistant" can perform. In the Divemaster Course section DMT's are explicitly to be assessed on assistant teaching functions. Some of the most explicit examples:

On pg. 130 "4. Help a student diver overcome a learning difficulty."​

On pg. 130 "6. Demonstrate a skill for student divers." ​

On pg. 131 "3. Help a continuing education student diver overcome a learning difficulty."​

​

There is no rational reading of the the manual for the DMT practical assessments that doesn't conclude that the DM role includes a teaching component, and that a DMT is expected to actually demonstrate the execution of that role, not just observe it.

It is possible that the OP was asked to execute teaching roles he should not have been by the standards. But the idea than any role other than observation is a standards violation is completely inconsistent with the standards.

Critiques should be based on pointing out the individual actions that were standards violations, not blanket statements that "DMT's should only observe," or "DMT's should never teach" which are both statements that force violations of the standards for training DMT's.

 

[Boarderguy]

I think you're overlooking what demonstrate means. The DM/DMT is allowed to demonstrate skills. They are not, however, allowed at assess the skill being repeated by the student. They are essentially a puppet for the instructor to use for demonstrations while the instructor evaluates the student. You're quibbling over semantics and not including the rest is what it takes to teach someone. When I was teaching we used many avenues for demonstrations, but only the certified instructor could evaluate the student and their skills set. This includes classroom work and field work. For the MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program) we used meat puppets to demonstrate on. They did nothing except hold whatever position we put them in to better show the students how to perform the move.

A dive master is not an instructor and should not be evaluating nor teaching new skills to non certified divers. They should be in the water demonstrating what the instructor directs for the benefit of the students.