Gue Vs Tdi

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Status
Not open for further replies.
myself:
But what a minute... So I need an oxygen pressure of 0.21 ATA at sea level, check. And if I go up a mountain to where the the total pressue is 0.5 ATA then I'll still have a oxygen precentage of 21% but only have an oxygen pressure of 0.105 ATA, check. But I don't want to get a headache from hypoxia so I bring a bottle EAN42 with me. Now I'm breathing PO2 of 0.21 again and my headache is gone. Great! Now, why did my headache go away? Was it because I'm now getting the same pressure of oxygen or the same amount of oxygen that I was at sea level?
It's the amount of oxygen you're actually concerned with.

If you look at the ideal gas law (PV = nRT) you'll see that pressure and the amount of gas (n) are directly related. If you hold volume and temperature constant, more gas means more pressure and less gas means less pressure.

At sea level (1 ATA of pressure) you have some amount of gas in your lungs, of which 21% is oxygen. For the sake of argument, let's say it's 1 mole of gas. That means the amount of oxygen in your lungs is .21 moles. As the total pressure varies the concentration of oxygen stays the same, but the pressure of oxygen doesn't.

As you climb a mountain, the pressure drops not because someone has a giant regulator but because the atmosphere is getting less dense. Lower density mean fewer gas molecules and hence less pressure. This is the same reason partial pressures increases as you decend while diving. The relative concentrations are the same but the gas is denser so the partial pressure of each component goes up accordingly.

If you climbed high enough to find a pressure of 0.5 ATA you'd find that the density of the atmosphere was incredibly low. So low in fact that there wouldn't be enough oxygen molecules present to really support life. The amount of oxygen present is no longer 0.21 moles but (1/2)*0.21 moles, or 0.105 moles. My claim is that this difference (the decrease in total amount of oxygen) is what's important and not the pressure it's at.

Now let's take a look at this from a partial pressure point of view. If you claim that a P02 of 0.21 ATA is needed you have two choices, increase the pressure or increase the amount of oxygen present. The catch is that you can't change the pressure (unless you climb back down) without changing the volume or the temperature. Since your lung size is fixed you can't change the volume and you can't really change the temperature enough to effect anything without frying yourself. So you're stuck with the pressure you've got. Since you're stuck with the pressure you only have one choice... change the amount of oxygen. The part that's confusing is that by changing the amount of oxygen present you also change it's partial pressure. It seems like the oxygen partial pressure is what's important, but really the addition of oxygen is what drove the pressure up and not the other way around.

Regardless whether you're 33 ft below the ocean, standing on the beach or top of a ridiculously high mountain, two things are true about the air in your lungs. The volume of air in your lungs is constant and it's at ambient pressure. Yes, I know that the volumes change with pressure, but physical space available to your lungs doesn't change and that's the important volume to consider so think of your lungs ridgid container like a scuba tank. Since you can't change the volume of your lungs and you don't have any say as to what the ambient pressure is, the only way to change the amount of oxygen in your lungs is to swap it with something else. On top of our insanely high mountain, we only have half a mole of air, or 0.105 moles are O2. If we want to increase the amount of oxygen to 0.21 moles, we have to remove 0.105 moles of nitrogen first. When we do this we now have 0.21 moles of O2 divided by 0.5 moles of air gives an oxygen fraction of 0.42. Now, if the total pressure is 0.5, this F02 of 0.42 results in a P02 of 0.21 ATA.

It's very tempting to say that the pressure (0.5 ATA) is what's driving this. In fact I'm getting the same headache free partial pressure of oxygen I was a sea level. The problem is that pressure is a function of several variables and since some of those variables are fixed (volume and temperature) we're left with a one to one relationship between pressure and amount of oxygen. And since the amount of oxygen is the only variable we can actually control, it's the dominating factor, not pressure.
 
cornfed:
It's the amount of oxygen you're actually concerned with.

If you look at the ideal gas law (PV = nRT) you'll see that pressure and the amount of gas (n) are directly related. If you hold volume and temperature constant, more gas means more pressure and less gas means less pressure.

At sea level (1 ATA of pressure) you have some amount of gas in your lungs, of which 21% is oxygen. For the sake of argument, let's say it's 1 mole of gas. That means the amount of oxygen in your lungs is .21 moles. As the total pressure varies the concentration of oxygen stays the same, but the pressure of oxygen doesn't.

As you climb a mountain, the pressure drops not because someone has a giant regulator but because the atmosphere is getting less dense. Lower density mean fewer gas molecules and hence less pressure. This is the same reason partial pressures increases as you decend while diving. The relative concentrations are the same but the gas is denser so the partial pressure of each component goes up accordingly.

If you climbed high enough to find a pressure of 0.5 ATA you'd find that the density of the atmosphere was incredibly low. So low in fact that there wouldn't be enough oxygen molecules present to really support life. The amount of oxygen present is no longer 0.21 moles but (1/2)*0.21 moles, or 0.105 moles. My claim is that this difference (the decrease in total amount of oxygen) is what's important and not the pressure it's at.

Now let's take a look at this from a partial pressure point of view. If you claim that a P02 of 0.21 ATA is needed you have two choices, increase the pressure or increase the amount of oxygen present. The catch is that you can't change the pressure (unless you climb back down) without changing the volume or the temperature. Since your lung size is fixed you can't change the volume and you can't really change the temperature enough to effect anything without frying yourself. So you're stuck with the pressure you've got. Since you're stuck with the pressure you only have one choice... change the amount of oxygen. The part that's confusing is that by changing the amount of oxygen present you also change it's partial pressure. It seems like the oxygen partial pressure is what's important, but really the addition of oxygen is what drove the pressure up and not the other way around.

Regardless whether you're 33 ft below the ocean, standing on the beach or top of a ridiculously high mountain, two things are true about the air in your lungs. The volume of air in your lungs is constant and it's at ambient pressure. Yes, I know that the volumes change with pressure, but physical space available to your lungs doesn't change and that's the important volume to consider so think of your lungs ridgid container like a scuba tank. Since you can't change the volume of your lungs and you don't have any say as to what the ambient pressure is, the only way to change the amount of oxygen in your lungs is to swap it with something else. On top of our insanely high mountain, we only have half a mole of air, or 0.105 moles are O2. If we want to increase the amount of oxygen to 0.21 moles, we have to remove 0.105 moles of nitrogen first. When we do this we now have 0.21 moles of O2 divided by 0.5 moles of air gives an oxygen fraction of 0.42. Now, if the total pressure is 0.5, this F02 of 0.42 results in a P02 of 0.21 ATA.

It's very tempting to say that the pressure (0.5 ATA) is what's driving this. In fact I'm getting the same headache free partial pressure of oxygen I was a sea level. The problem is that pressure is a function of several variables and since some of those variables are fixed (volume and temperature) we're left with a one to one relationship between pressure and amount of oxygen. And since the amount of oxygen is the only variable we can actually control, it's the dominating factor, not pressure.
dude, Im going to shake my head and walk away, But before I go, can you tell me what total partial pressure is at 99 fsw. thanks just use air 21/79 or .21 +.79 x 4=?
 
nova:
dude, Im going to shake my head and walk away, But before I go, can you tell me what total partial pressure is at 99 fsw. thanks
There are no words.
 
cornfed:
If you're going to split hairs... neither. ;)

Wow, it is fun to play stupid games like this.
Told ya
 
pants!:
There are no words.
This may shock you but , I'm a tachnical diver that's taken the class. and I'm sitting in my own dive library with tons of info.
 
nova:
dude, Im going to shake my head and walk away, But before I go, can you tell me what total partial pressure is at 99 fsw. thanks
You accused me of being so blinded by dogma that I couldn't reason through anything. Well, there's my reasoning. You can either refute what you disagree with or run away and bury your head at four atmospheres. Your choice.
 
cornfed:
You accused me of being so blinded by dogma that I couldn't reason through anything. Well, there's my reasoning. You can either refute what you disagree with or run away and bury your head at four atmospheres. Your choice.
I'll refute it. your wrong , dive science says your wrong, physics says your wrong, Dalton's law says your wrong. Henry's law of solubility says your wrong, physiology of mix gas diving says your wrong,Charles' law says your wrong. Damn, what does it take cornfed .
 
nova:
I'll refute it. your wrong , dive science says your wrong, physics says your wrong, Dalton's law says your wrong. Henry's law of solubility says your wrong, physiology of mix gas diving says your wrong,Charles' law says your wrong.
Where exactly did I violate any of those things?
nova:
Damn, what does it take cornfed .
All you've done is assert that I'm wrong, but you haven't actually pointed out where.
 
cornfed:
Where exactly did I violate any of those things? All you've done is assert that I'm wrong, but you haven't actually pointed out where.
The words PARTIAL PRESSURE. the words TOTAL PRESSURE all deal with disolved gas in the body. IT's PRESSURE , PRESSURE PRESSURE
 
nova:
The words PARTIAL PRESSURE. the words TOTAL PRESSURE all deal with disolved gas in the body. IT's PRESSURE , PRESSURE PRESSURE
So was I wrong in my analysis of what factors contribute to that pressure?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom