GUE & Halcyon Gear
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EireDiver606
Contributor
I took fundies almost 20 years ago back when EMT shears and a "stroke pile" kicked off the class (things were much more fun back then). There was no pass or tech pass and pretty much everybody "failed". JJ was my fundies instructor and I showed up in a 5 mil wetsuit wearing blue Mares Quattros that I had equipped with homemade spring straps made from wire, screen door closer springs and heat shrink tubing I found on the cave diving aisle in Home Depot. I had two bright yellow UK SL4s bungied to my harness in the same location they had their rat lights. I figured my MacGyver'd rec gear was just as good as their fancy cave diving gear.
Video review (shot by Marc Singer) was in a suite (lol) at the Nottoway Motel near Lake Rawlings quarry (now Lake Phoenix) in VA. My DIRF was MHK's IDC and Dave Sweetin and Chris Elmore (RIP) were also assisting with the class.
Anyway, even back then when DIR folks were known for being, uh, less accommodating than they are now I don't remember anybody beating anybody up over gear selection. It was very much an open discussion about all the gear everybody had in class and what works in certain situations and what might not. I'd just show up for the class in whatever you have and make the best of it.
Me in my blue fins at fundies:
Video review (shot by Marc Singer) was in a suite (lol) at the Nottoway Motel near Lake Rawlings quarry (now Lake Phoenix) in VA. My DIRF was MHK's IDC and Dave Sweetin and Chris Elmore (RIP) were also assisting with the class.
Anyway, even back then when DIR folks were known for being, uh, less accommodating than they are now I don't remember anybody beating anybody up over gear selection. It was very much an open discussion about all the gear everybody had in class and what works in certain situations and what might not. I'd just show up for the class in whatever you have and make the best of it.
Me in my blue fins at fundies:
oh come on, your comment above highlighted in bold? That have me a good laugh. Halcyon makes great gear, there is no question about it, but so do other manufacturers that cost less that in many cases are just as good.
CuriousRambler
Contributor
I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you, off the top of your head, confidently name a single source manufacturer with comparable quality BP/W, DSMB, and a can light too?
I won't even say H gear is "better" than the rest. I think in some cases their stuff is demonstrably inferior (backup lights, IMO) to some of their competition. But it's simply not reasonable to assume a non-dealer instructor will be familiar with every brand on the market, and if this model from that manufacturer is up to snuff. I think most manufacturers offer SOME great products, and probably more than a few wastes of money (Halcyon included). That is to say you can't reliably say "anything Kleenex brand is good, and compatible with the philosophy we teach." Halcyon *does* offer that.
So again, I'm not saying H is better, or that there isn't a more affordable alternative (though in some cases I've been hard pressed to find a cheaper alternative of comparable quality). But @EireDiver606's point of "in the student's best interest" isn't inaccurate either. It's a simple "this gear WILL work." It's not a claim that it's the ONLY gear that will work.
I have an expensive paperweight in the Focus handheld.
You cherry pick a number of items as different manufacturers make different gear.
I have no financial interest in XDeep other than being a customer of several of their BCD offerings: Zeos for both single and doubles, Stealth, and Ghost. All incredible quality and design. For budgetary reasons, I’d choose XDeep over Halcyon for bp/w and sidemount every time.
canister lights I’d look elsewhere too.
DSMB I believe that Halcyon is the clear best however.
I don’t believe in buying all gear from the same manufacturer. I have no interest in looking like a company’s catalog, unless it happens by chance. For that to happen a company has to provide a “high” performance/price ratio. For my personal diving. There is no such company right now. XDeep harness, Deep 6 fins and regs, Atomic mask, K-01 hood (the best from my experience), DUI dry suit, Shearwaters (obviously), you get the idea.
CuriousRambler
Contributor
No, I cherry pick a number of items to illustrate my point.
I agree with you, 100%. Like I said, I don't disagree with anything you've said. But I think I failed to clearly state the point I was trying to make.
In the specific context of GUE instructors suggesting Halcyon gear to students, I'm simply saying it's narrow-minded to assume the instructor does that specifically because of GUE/Halcyon relationships/history. As @tbone1004 has pointed out, there's [usually] zero financial incentive for a GUE instructor to push Halcyon gear.
I'm just pointing out, from an instructor's perspective, it's easy to suggest Halcyon gear to students. Halcyon makes (or re-brands, as I gather regarding regulators)...So let's say "Halcyon makes available under one label" GUE-compliant equipment, which is generally accepted to be high quality. Thus, @EireDiver606's statement makes sense: "if they recommend Halcyon products, it’s because it is in the student’s best interest."
Not because Halcyon gear is the best, or the least expensive, or the most available, or possibly any other reason except that it is a very known quantity - it will work within the GUE contexts, and quality is generally high enough to not be a remote concern.
The other side of the coin is a student asking an instructor "what's a high quality, more affordable BP/W that works for this class?" Assume the instructor, like me, hasn't bought themselves a new BP/W in over a decade. The response might be "Halcyon is good, but Deep Sea Supply makes a great alternative....Oh, DSS went out of business? Huh...Well maybe Oxycheq. Oh, Oxycheq is comparably priced to Halcyon now? Huh...Well the internet seems to be happy with Deep6 gear, but I don't know, personally."
Or more specifically, a student asks, "what do you think of the XDeep Zeos?" Personally, I've never even heard of XDeep before your post. That's not meant as a statement about XDeep at all, simply that I'm not "in the know" enough to be familiar with them. Were I the instructor the student is asking, that reply could easily be misconstrued as a negative statement against XDeep, which it absolutely is not intended to be.
The point I'm trying to make is that Halcyon is simply an easy and reliable single-point source for almost anything an upcoming GUE diver could need. To expect instructors to have a finger on the pulse of every model, or even every manufacturer, just isn't really reasonable. If the instructor is the gearhead type, or often fields those questions, they may be very well informed and ready to answer with a multitude of options that aren't Halcyon. But for the full-time software developer who happens to teach GUE courses in their spare time, that level of knowledge might not be realistic. In the latter case, Halcyon is essentially the "easy button" the instructor can hit. Without personal exposure to a specific piece of H gear, they can still count on it being a quality choice. Other manufacturers may make a fantastic doubles wing, and they might also offer a doubles bondage wing that fails the GUE litmus test. If the instructor says "oh yeah, those guys make good stuff!" and the student buys based on brand recognition alone, it could be a potentially expensive mistake, even if it were a fraction the price of a Halcyon wing to start.
Again, not arguing Halcyon is the best, or the best bang for the buck, or anything else. If anything, I'm arguing that nobody should trust a single person for all their equipment research needs. But what Halcyon is, is a sure thing for instructors to suggest.
@CuriousRambler
I disagree as I don’t believe in single sources. Pick quality components as targeted price points.
a good instructor will be familiar with many brands.
I’m guessing you don’t dive sidemount.
I disagree as I don’t believe in single sources. Pick quality components as targeted price points.
a good instructor will be familiar with many brands.
I’m guessing you don’t dive sidemount.
seeker242
Contributor
A typical distinction though is the "minimum price" is usually just the advertised price, not the actual sale price. So if you go in their shop and say "Hey, can you give me this for X amount" they are typically free to say yes regardless of what the price is. You just can't publicize the fact that you are selling it for that price.
CuriousRambler
Contributor
@wetb4igetinthewater your "beliefs" frankly don't matter in the context of the question. I agree with you here, and I dedicate a borderline obsessive amount of time to researching everything I buy; brand carries little to no weight with me in general. Your preference against single sources is simply intelligent, in my opinion, but it is simply that: a preference. No matter how much you prefer to shop around and find the right piece of kit for your purposes, you can't honestly say Halcyon makes any substandard gear that fails to meet GUE's standards. That is the point I'm making, regarding instructor advice. Are there better options out there? Sometimes, yes. Are there cheaper options out there? Almost without exception. But does Halcyon fail to meet any quantitative or qualitative standards GUE expects from equipment? Unequivocally no.
Your purchasing preferences aren't in question here, and they frankly have zero impact on the subject at hand. I'm not trying to attack you or be rude, but nothing I've said has anything to do with what you prefer, so submitting your preferences as a counter to my statements is simply ridiculous, and completely irrelevant.
An instructor's job is not to guide students' gear purchases. Take GUE out of the equation, and find me ten shop-affiliated instructors who will suggest gear their shop doesn't sell. An instructor simply is not a good source for gear advice. I would expect an instructor to suggest gear that meets the requirements of the course I'm taking with them, nothing more. Whether you like it or not, whether it meets your preferences or not, Halcyon equipment meets GUE requirements, period.
Obviously there are plenty of instructors out there who are willing and able to provide alternative suggestions. I've personally been guided to non-Halcyon gear by a GUE instructor. It definitely happens. It's just not reasonable to expect an instructor (from ANY organization) to be familiar with all the gear on the market and provide you with objective advice for your situation. At best, they'll suggest what they dive personally. At worst, that will be something they get inside man pricing on and profit by selling it to you as a dealer.
Your purchasing preferences aren't in question here, and they frankly have zero impact on the subject at hand. I'm not trying to attack you or be rude, but nothing I've said has anything to do with what you prefer, so submitting your preferences as a counter to my statements is simply ridiculous, and completely irrelevant.
An instructor's job is not to guide students' gear purchases. Take GUE out of the equation, and find me ten shop-affiliated instructors who will suggest gear their shop doesn't sell. An instructor simply is not a good source for gear advice. I would expect an instructor to suggest gear that meets the requirements of the course I'm taking with them, nothing more. Whether you like it or not, whether it meets your preferences or not, Halcyon equipment meets GUE requirements, period.
Obviously there are plenty of instructors out there who are willing and able to provide alternative suggestions. I've personally been guided to non-Halcyon gear by a GUE instructor. It definitely happens. It's just not reasonable to expect an instructor (from ANY organization) to be familiar with all the gear on the market and provide you with objective advice for your situation. At best, they'll suggest what they dive personally. At worst, that will be something they get inside man pricing on and profit by selling it to you as a dealer.
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