GUE Fundamentals

[ginti]

It might be, I just know that I had to repeat V-drill more than I should due to that.

Just so that you know, usually GUE instructors will let you repeat things that you already show you can do, even several times. In the end:
- if things are straightforward for you, it doesn't cost you anything, and it's good to practice to maintain a high level of skills;
- if things aren't that easy, it's good to practice even more.
Why do I mention it? Because during ANY GUE course, you have to repeat the V-drill way more often than you **need/should**, with or without the "right-hand" problem. This is the way to reach proficiency. And, trust me, you want to do the V-drill without even thinking about it before entering an overhead environment because you need to check the valves any time you hit something, which unfortunately does happen sometimes.

You were... or at least I was extremely unlucky. Feel free to check the reddit/scuba and you can see all the toxicity everytime GUE is mentioned. I wouldn't mind sharing with you some LDS that you will have a bad time if they found out you are trained by GUE.

I have seen only a couple of threads on Reddit about GUE, and most of them were rather honest; maybe could you send me some links, even in private, to avoid too much spam.

So in this point I had in mind mostly old instructors and GUE divers, or new instructors that the want to level up in the "hierarchy". My experience during the class, although not explicity said is that GUE really tries to enforce philosophy and have each diver policing each other. During my class I had the instructor who knew my buddy (C1) that pushed me towards GUE, asking tricky questions to see if he was always doing things right, and it was clear that if he did, either they would shout at him to make sure he is more careful or he might have issues in his C2 class.
At one of my dives with one of the most big instructors at GUE during the briefing he made the gesture for deco stop, the first time I saw it in my life, and when I asked he explains and then asked me back in a very serious tone the name of my Fundies Instructor. The funny part is that this gesture has not been in the material of GUE-F for some years now, since 2 other people there that did their fundies with different instructors also didn't know it.
Personally, I am very careful everytime I interact with the all dogs. Quality control is everywhere in GUE.

What you describe is true. But I do not see it as an issue. Actually, I am happy to know if I am ready to take a course or not. Indeed, these courses are rather expensive in terms of time, money and mental effort. So I am happy to hear from instructors feedback about my level.

The thing is that I am not sure in other agencies if such thing is as common as in GUE.

I believe this thing doesn't exist at all with other agencies. If I remember well, GUE is the owner of your GUE card, while, with other agencies, you are the owner of the card. I believe this is why GUE representatives can retrieve your certification any time they want if justified.

Now we are going a bit inside some details of GUE that I may not know that well; I am just at level 1 of their courses, definitely far from being an instructor or an insider... So do not take my experience (and, in general, what I say) as the holy bible

 

[drrich2]

I believe this thing doesn't exist at all with other agencies. If I remember well, GUE is the owner of your GUE card, while, with other agencies, you are the owner of the card.

I'm guessing most GUE Fundamentals passing divers already have other certifications (e.g.: at least OW, probably AOW and from this discussion I'd think Nitrox) that they can dive with. Revoking a GUE Fundamentals cert. wouldn't stop a person from diving, whereas if PADI started threatening to revoke OW or AOW cert.s if they got reports of divers don't bad things, that'd be more serious (and lead to more interest in SSI and SDI training).

Is there any practical impact to 'losing' your GUE Fundamentals certification status, either due to expiration (e.g.: not everyone gets 25 limit-pushing dives/year 3 years running) or it gets pulled because 'they' found out something incriminating (i.g.: would a publicized pot-related conviction do it?)?

 

[ginti]

Is there any practical impact to 'losing' your GUE Fundamentals certification status, either due to expiration (e.g.: not everyone gets 25 limit-pushing dives/year 3 years running) or it gets pulled because 'they' found out something incriminating (i.g.: would a publicized pot-related conviction do it?)?

You cannot enrol on other GUE courses. Also, if you do not have other nitrox certification, you lose the ability to use this beautiful mix

 

[AJ]

Do you have an example of a type of a dive that requires something not cover by DIR? I get that some dives could be easier performed in a non-DIR way assuming no availability of proper gear, but I might have trouble finding dives that DIR is not the optimal (or an optimal) solution.

Me doing a 1 hour dive on 1 meter just hovering over the reef Sure I can take a GUE rigged rebreather weighing sixty kilos and a drysuit, but why? All I need is some simple gear to do this dive.

Doing a serious dive is different. But even then, caves with restrictions can be tricky. Sidemount might be a better option, even if it's not a GUE Cave 2+ dive. Use what works best, don't get hung up with just one way of diving.

 

[ginti]

My opinion: I believe the "right-hand thing" is there because of standardized procedures. I never heard that a person failed a course because of that; in real life, you wouldn't check the regulator, or if you do, nobody cares which hand you use as long as the entire procedure is safe AND fast (yes, using the right-hand makes it slightly faster).

Just so that you know, usually GUE instructors will let you repeat things that you already show you can do, even several times. In the end:
- if things are straightforward for you, it doesn't cost you anything, and it's good to practice to maintain a high level of skills;
- if things aren't that easy, it's good to practice even more.
Why do I mention it? Because during ANY GUE course, you have to repeat the V-drill way more often than you **need/should**, with or without the "right-hand" problem. This is the way to reach proficiency. And, trust me, you want to do the V-drill without even thinking about it before entering an overhead environment because you need to check the valves any time you hit something, which unfortunately does happen sometimes.

@marisox, I have just thought that there can be something else involved in the right-hand use during the V-drill. Using always the left hand for the emergency regulator helps in building muscle memory that is going to be helpful in the case of an out of gas scenario; just a guess, and frankly speaking I do not believe it is a total game-changer... just two cents from a person without teaching experience.

 

[mariosx]

Just so that you know, usually GUE instructors will let you repeat things that you already show you can do, even several times. In the end:
- if things are straightforward for you, it doesn't cost you anything, and it's good to practice to maintain a high level of skills;
- if things aren't that easy, it's good to practice even more.
Why do I mention it? Because during ANY GUE course, you have to repeat the V-drill way more often than you **need/should**, with or without the "right-hand" problem. This is the way to reach proficiency. And, trust me, you want to do the V-drill without even thinking about it before entering an overhead environment because you need to check the valves any time you hit something, which unfortunately does happen sometimes.

Well, if the instructor hits your right hand when testing your necklace and asks you to repeat the drill, well... the reason is obvious.

I have seen only a couple of threads on Reddit about GUE, and most of them were rather honest; maybe could you send me some links, even in private, to avoid too much spam.

Will do.

What you describe is true. But I do not see it as an issue. Actually, I am happy to know if I am ready to take a course or not. Indeed, these courses are rather expensive in terms of time, money and mental effort. So I am happy to hear from instructors feedback about my level.

I am proudly swimming in the kool-aid. I totally agree with you. I listed as a negative for somebody that might thinking of joining GUE and be more relaxed on their competency etc. For you and me is what makes GUE that great. For many or most it's what makes GUE less appealing to them.

I believe this thing doesn't exist at all with other agencies. If I remember well, GUE is the owner of your GUE card, while, with other agencies, you are the owner of the card. I believe this is why GUE representatives can retrieve your certification any time they want if justified.


Now we are going a bit inside some details of GUE that I may not know that well; I am just at level 1 of their courses, definitely far from being an instructor or an insider... So do not take my experience (and, in general, what I say) as the holy bible

Of course same goes for me. My first chapter on my thesis in this thread was focused on exactly this disclaimer.

 

[mariosx]

Me doing a 1 hour dive on 1 meter just hovering over the reef Sure I can take a GUE rigged rebreather weighing sixty kilos and a drysuit, but why? All I need is some simple gear to do this dive.

I don't get it a bit. There are less than 100 people capable of diving RB80s (from what I have heard) and thousands of GUE divers doing exactly what you are describing.

For such a dive you don't need anything more than any other diver. A single tank, BP+W instead of BCD, a computer (?), regs with long hose, fins, and a mask. Do not confuse GUE divers choosing to perform simple dives with double tanks+stages etc for practice, with the GUE guidelines.

Doing a serious dive is different. But even then, caves with restrictions can be tricky. Sidemount might be a better option, even if it's not a GUE Cave 2+ dive. Use what works best, don't get hung up with just one way of diving.

This is exactly GUE's opinion to my understanding. For tight restrictions that backmount can be a hazard, the GUE approach is to use sidemount. The issue that GUE had (or has?) with sidemount is that it goes against the standards for all the other gears, v-drills, routing, etc is different, thus you need more training after Cave2. They spent some years to become familiar enough with sidemount in order to incorporate it to "DIR" the optimal way for the system.

 

[ginti]

Well, if the instructor hits your right hand when testing your necklace and asks you to repeat the drill, well... the reason is obvious.

What I meant is that, even if there were no mistakes, the instructor would have asked you to do it again (most likely). But see my last post, it can be related to muscle memory...

Anyway, this concept of repetition is very important. Here I am implying that, in your view, one **should** repeat an exercise until it is done up to good levels (good = as by standard). Just to give you some examples about repeating exercising even more than one **should**:
- swim test for my tec pass. The instructor knows me very well, and he knows that I can do the hold-breathing exercise and the swim one even if I am totally out of my usual shape (in fact, I can pass them within the instructor rating limits without effort). I asked: "do I really have to do it?" answer: "come on, it's easy for you, just do it"
- valve manipulation during cave and tec courses: you start the first day, and you continue until the last day of the course (or the one before, now I can't remember well); it doesn't matter if you are a star during the course, and the instructor knows that you can pass it hands down. You do the exercise again and again
- propulsion techniques: do I have to mention how often I am asked to show them? even at cave and tec courses, even if the instructor knows you very well

No matter how well you can do an exercise, repetition gives you the ability to excel and the capacity to maintain your level.

As a matter of fact, I often do exercises just to practice a bit when I dive with my GUE buddies. Sometimes, I just go for training dives at 6m of depth. Repeat, improve, repeat.

 

[mariosx]

@marisox, I have just thought that there can be something else involved in the right-hand use during the V-drill. Using always the left hand for the emergency regulator helps in building muscle memory that is going to be helpful in the case of an out of gas scenario; just a guess, and frankly speaking I do not believe it is a total game-changer... just two cents from a person without teaching experience.

It still makes sense a bit because practically you devote your right hand dealing with the long hose and your left hand with the necklace at all times (only exception during S-drill if the donor is on the left side).

Yeap, that's exactly what I meant with my previous comment.

That was the only question my instructor was not completely sure, which is funny that I was the first one asking. But he came back in less than one hour after he asked more senior people with that explanation. More precisely it's for muscle memory, and it makes a difference in much higher levels (possibly stages, rb80s, sidemount ???).
Again I might be a broken phone now, so do not take my response as 100% accurate.

 

[mariosx]

What I meant is that, even if there were no mistakes, the instructor would have asked you to do it again (most likely). But see my last post, it can be related to muscle memory...

Anyway, this concept of repetition is very important. Here I am implying that, in your view, one **should** repeat an exercise until it is done up to good levels (good = as by standard). Just to give you some examples about repeating exercising even more than one **should**:
- swim test for my tec pass. The instructor knows me very well, and he knows that I can do the hold-breathing exercise and the swim one even if I am totally out of my usual shape (in fact, I can pass them within the instructor rating limits without effort). I asked: "do I really have to do it?" answer: "come on, it's easy for you, just do it"
- valve manipulation during cave and tec courses: you start the first day, and you continue until the last day of the course (or the one before, now I can't remember well); it doesn't matter if you are a star during the course, and the instructor knows that you can pass it hands down. You do the exercise again and again
- propulsion techniques: do I have to mention how often I am asked to show them? even at cave and tec courses, even if the instructor knows you very well

No matter how well you can do an exercise, repetition gives you the ability to excel and the capacity to maintain your level.

As a matter of fact, I often do exercises just to practice a bit when I dive with my GUE buddies. Sometimes, I just go for training dives at 6m of depth. Repeat, improve, repeat.

Yeap, totally get it. I would say, that if the instructor knows your background they might even press you more, during the swimming test. i have heard of stories were the instructors set a higher bar than the GUE standards for swimming. Anyway pushing the limits and repetition is for sure the key to excel.