GUE Fundamentals

[barth]

The point is, fundies is strict in config during the class. Outside the class you're free to do whatever you like, there's no Scuba police. For me, fundies made me a much better allround diver and pushed my boundaries a lot. That's what fundies is all about for me, not the rules and gear.

Instructors are likely to get dropped by GUE for not being a role model. This includes personal diving - and extends beyond GUE. But that is between the instructor and their supervisors nothing student's need to worry about. Although more agencies should take GUE's lead here and remove poor instructors who can't follow standards or are poor role models for fitness, health, cave conservation, agency practices, etc. One of the worst examples was a North FL cave instructor who retained teaching status after a cocaine trafficking conviction. Sure he did his time but ughhh. Of course, there was another instructor with a robbery conviction, implicated in the death of students, who is now looking at 5 years in jail for selling CCRs to potential terrorists.... So it's a slippery judgement slope on the part of any agency on who to retain vs who to drop from the roles and for what behavior.

I think it depends on where you dive and which GUE instructors and/or divers also dive there.

In 2018 I was joining a gue project. The project was finished. Next day we were doing a fun dive (baron Gautsch, depth 28 - 40 meter). We were in a group of divers and were discussing our planning. I was tech 1 and cave 2 and told a buddy that I want to dive with D12 with 30/30, bottom stage 30/30 and oxygen stage for deco. There was also a GUE instructor in the group who wasn't diving with us next day and he told me that it was a tech 2 dive and that I was not allowed to do that dive. I told him that it was a cave 2 dive because I was going to enter the wreck, and that I was allowed to carry a bottom and deco stage as a cave 2 diver. He didn't agree. I didn't want a long discussion with him. I didn't want to spoil the atmosphere. I did dive the next day with oxygen and doubles without bottomstage.

In 2019 I did CCR 1. After my class I did start diving in the Netherlands with my JJ. There was a gue instructor asking my buddy if I was trained for the JJ. Maybe he was just interested or maybe was acting like scubapolice, I don't know. But I was already gue ccr 1 certified.

In 2020 I went to a divesite with my gue JJ. I was there without a buddy. Short after me a gue instructor arrived. He was diving OC. His buddy also arrived, he was a gue ccr1 diving and was diving his jj. I did bring my camera during that dive. I was diving with both of them. AFter that dive I did sent photos to both of them which I did make during the dive with them. A couple of days later my ccr 1 instructor did contact me. They asked him to contact me for about solodiving in the Netherlands. The gue instructor who I did meet at the divesite did complain about me.

When a gue cave 1 diver is posting a photo at facebook which is made in or near a cave with a dpv, sidemount tanks or a stage there will probably will be a comment of a gue instructor at his facebook post. (When he/she is friends at facebook and/or did training with instructors which name I will not write down here). That did happen a lot of times last years. Even if gear at the photo was somebody else his/her gear who wasn't even in his/her team.

I can guarantee that if you're doing here a lot of things which aren't allowed by gue that some day a gue instructor will contact you because of the things you're doing. (At least if you dive at certain divesites and/or if you are friends with gue instructors which name I don't write down here) at facebook. )

That doesn't mean I don't like gue training. I didn't regret fundamentals, cave 1, tech 1, cave 2 and ccr 1.

 

[AJ]

I don't get it a bit. There are less than 100 people capable of diving RB80s (from what I have heard) and thousands of GUE divers doing exactly what you are describing.

For such a dive you don't need anything more than any other diver. A single tank, BP+W instead of BCD, a computer (?), regs with long hose, fins, and a mask. Do not confuse GUE divers choosing to perform simple dives with double tanks+stages etc for practice, with the GUE guidelines.

Exactly what I was saying in response to a question what dives could be done without a DIR compliant rig. I'am not confused about GUE guidelines. The point I wanted to make is that you choose to dive GUE style with your teammates or not. GUE is not mandatory in any way. If something else provides a better solution than GUE, go for it. On the other hand, if you as a team decide to dive GUE style that's great too.

It seems to me that some people think GUE/DIR is the greatest and only solution to dive. It's not, it's a tool to do a dive that works great for some dives. But so do other solutions. And for some dives the GUE rig doesn't work that great, like I stated.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad I did Fundies and I'am proud to have made it to the tech rating. Maybe I'll do Cave with GUE someday, maybe not. However, I don't care about their Tech OC courses, rebreather and sidemount rigging enough to pursue that. I am open minded about GUE in comparison to other solutions that work better for my kind of diving.

 

[kierentec]

I think it depends on where you dive and which GUE instructors and/or divers also dive there.

In 2018 I was joining a gue project. The project was finished. Next day we were doing a fun dive (baron Gautsch, depth 28 - 40 meter). We were in a group of divers and were discussing our planning. I was tech 1 and cave 2 and told a buddy that I want to dive with D12 with 30/30, bottom stage 30/30 and oxygen stage for deco. There was also a GUE instructor in the group who wasn't diving with us next day and he told me that it was a tech 2 dive and that I was not allowed to do that dive. I told him that it was a cave 2 dive because I was going to enter the wreck, and that I was allowed to carry a bottom and deco stage as a cave 2 diver. He didn't agree. I didn't want a long discussion with him. I didn't want to spoil the atmosphere. I did dive the next day with oxygen and doubles without bottomstage.

In 2019 I did CCR 1. After my class I did start diving in the Netherlands with my JJ. There was a gue instructor asking my buddy if I was trained for the JJ. Maybe he was just interested or maybe was acting like scubapolice, I don't know. But I was already gue ccr 1 certified.

In 2020 I went to a divesite with my gue JJ. I was there without a buddy. Short after me a gue instructor arrived. He was diving OC. His buddy also arrived, he was a gue ccr1 diving and was diving his jj. I did bring my camera during that dive. I was diving with both of them. AFter that dive I did sent photos to both of them which I did make during the dive with them. A couple of days later my ccr 1 instructor did contact me. They asked him to contact me for about solodiving in the Netherlands. The gue instructor who I did meet at the divesite did complain about me.

When a gue cave 1 diver is posting a photo at facebook which is made in or near a cave with a dpv, sidemount tanks or a stage there will probably will be a comment of a gue instructor at his facebook post. (When he/she is friends at facebook and/or did training with instructors which name I will not write down here). That did happen a lot of times last years. Even if gear at the photo was somebody else his/her gear who wasn't even in his/her team.

I can guarantee that if you're doing here a lot of things which aren't allowed by gue that some day a gue instructor will contact you because of the things you're doing. (At least if you dive at certain divesites and/or if you are friends with gue instructors which name I don't write down here) at facebook. )

That doesn't mean I don't like gue training. I didn't regret fundamentals, cave 1, tech 1, cave 2 and ccr 1.

This is certainly not the norm. I’m a GUE instructor and regularly dive non-GUE rebreathers (including a sidemount CCR ). Many in our local GUE community regularly dive non-GUE side mount and CCR. Our community photographer regularly shoots non-GUE teams while doing dives beyond her GUE certifications (but well within her experience and non-GUE training). None of this is an issue with any of the local GUE instructors. I am sorry you have had that experience in your area, but it is not the way it is everywhere, nor the way it is supposed to be.

Some things, like solo diving, deep air, and smoking will certainly get the community riled up a bit.

(On another note, 30/30 is a 30m gas, which would be a more logical reason why your instructor was questioning the dive to 40m)

 

[ginti]

This is certainly not the norm. I’m a GUE instructor and regularly dive non-GUE rebreathers (including a sidemount CCR ). Many in our local GUE community regularly dive non-GUE side mount and CCR. Our community photographer regularly shoots non-GUE teams while doing dives beyond her GUE certifications (but well within her experience and non-GUE training). None of this is an issue with any of the local GUE instructors.

To add a bit, I can think at least of one instructor evaluator (cave level) who regularly dives with non-GUE divers, and pictures are on Facebook - everybody knows it.

Also, when they made the side-mount and the CCR courses, where did they gain the experience? Someone in GUE was diving that stuff and building expertise, and that stuff was not within GUE standard at that time.

The point is not to dive outside GUE standards; it is to do it safely.

Some things, like solo diving, deep air, and smoking will certainly get the community riled up a bit.

And diving outside our own training and experience.

 

[mariosx]

I think it depends on where you dive and which GUE instructors and/or divers also dive there.

In 2018 I was joining a gue project. The project was finished. Next day we were doing a fun dive (baron Gautsch, depth 28 - 40 meter). We were in a group of divers and were discussing our planning. I was tech 1 and cave 2 and told a buddy that I want to dive with D12 with 30/30, bottom stage 30/30 and oxygen stage for deco. There was also a GUE instructor in the group who wasn't diving with us next day and he told me that it was a tech 2 dive and that I was not allowed to do that dive. I told him that it was a cave 2 dive because I was going to enter the wreck, and that I was allowed to carry a bottom and deco stage as a cave 2 diver. He didn't agree. I didn't want a long discussion with him. I didn't want to spoil the atmosphere. I did dive the next day with oxygen and doubles without bottomstage.

In 2019 I did CCR 1. After my class I did start diving in the Netherlands with my JJ. There was a gue instructor asking my buddy if I was trained for the JJ. Maybe he was just interested or maybe was acting like scubapolice, I don't know. But I was already gue ccr 1 certified.

In 2020 I went to a divesite with my gue JJ. I was there without a buddy. Short after me a gue instructor arrived. He was diving OC. His buddy also arrived, he was a gue ccr1 diving and was diving his jj. I did bring my camera during that dive. I was diving with both of them. AFter that dive I did sent photos to both of them which I did make during the dive with them. A couple of days later my ccr 1 instructor did contact me. They asked him to contact me for about solodiving in the Netherlands. The gue instructor who I did meet at the divesite did complain about me.

When a gue cave 1 diver is posting a photo at facebook which is made in or near a cave with a dpv, sidemount tanks or a stage there will probably will be a comment of a gue instructor at his facebook post. (When he/she is friends at facebook and/or did training with instructors which name I will not write down here). That did happen a lot of times last years. Even if gear at the photo was somebody else his/her gear who wasn't even in his/her team.

I can guarantee that if you're doing here a lot of things which aren't allowed by gue that some day a gue instructor will contact you because of the things you're doing. (At least if you dive at certain divesites and/or if you are friends with gue instructors which name I don't write down here) at facebook. )

That doesn't mean I don't like gue training. I didn't regret fundamentals, cave 1, tech 1, cave 2 and ccr 1.

These stories certainly agree with my perception and other stories I have heard.

Exactly what I was saying in response to a question what dives could be done without a DIR compliant rig. I'am not confused about GUE guidelines. The point I wanted to make is that you choose to dive GUE style with your teammates or not. GUE is not mandatory in any way. If something else provides a better solution than GUE, go for it. On the other hand, if you as a team decide to dive GUE style that's great too.

It seems to me that some people think GUE/DIR is the greatest and only solution to dive. It's not, it's a tool to do a dive that works great for some dives. But so do other solutions. And for some dives the GUE rig doesn't work that great, like I stated.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad I did Fundies and I'am proud to have made it to the tech rating. Maybe I'll do Cave with GUE someday, maybe not. However, I don't care about their Tech OC courses, rebreather and sidemount rigging enough to pursue that. I am open minded about GUE in comparison to other solutions that work better for my kind of diving.

Of course there is agreement in order to perform a GUE dive. Sometimes I dive with GUE buddies non-GUE dives, for example with single tank and stage, due to lack of a second set of doubles.

In order to perform a GUE dive certain circumstances should hold, and potentially this might not be a bar you can meet every time.

I am very interested on an example that GUE is objectively suboptimal in a certain type of dives. Just comfort and lack of equipment might be understandable considerations but highly subjective and highly depended on the personal risk one is choosing taking. When you say "better" do you mean for you at the moment, or objectively more safe/efficient/etc?

 

[BlueTrin]

If you are not an instructor, but hold a GUE certification, and not doing a GUE dive, why would anyone care whether you follow GUE standards on non-GUE dives?

(Out of curiosity)

 

[mariosx]

If you are not an instructor, but hold a GUE certification, and not doing a GUE dive, why would anyone care whether you follow GUE standards on non-GUE dives?

(Out of curiosity)

This is a speculation, but I believe there is a blind trust on GUE buddies, either for fun or more serious dives. Not diving the GUE way potentially can be regarded as "choosing to do things in unsafe ways", "not getting enough practice at your level of certification", or if you are more senior "promoting such <<unsafe>> behavior".

It seems a bit "cultist", until you realized that as a GUE diver you have the right to participate in scientific expeditions and exploration in demanding conditions, and the entire GUE community trusts your competency even if they have never met you. In order to achieve such degree of trust, it makes sense, to me at least, to enforce quality control. Sometimes there is some overeaching, which is to be expected in every system.

EDIT:
As a newbie with only GUE-F Rec pass (equivalent to OW cert), I was blindly trusted to enter a cavern of a completely untouched cave for hundreds of thousands of years (if not more) where even a slightest silting could ruin experiments and future research. Imagine achieving such level of trust in a large community without enforcing quality control.

 

[Heat Miser]

@tmassey

 

[AJ]

I am very interested on an example that GUE is objectively suboptimal in a certain type of dives. Just comfort and lack of equipment might be understandable considerations but highly subjective and highly depended on the personal risk one is choosing taking. When you say "better" do you mean for you at the moment, or objectively more safe/efficient/etc?

It's a personal decision. As I am not Cave 2 trained, I can't do a GUE Cave sidemount dive. I do dive sidemount when I feel like it. It's not that I consider the GUE option suboptimal, I'am not trained to do the dive GUE sidemount style.

Rebreather choice is also a personal decision. Due to back problems I doubt I can haul a GUE rebreather onto the deck of a rocking boat with high waves. Besides that, I don't need that amount of bailout for the dives I do. So therefore I choose to dive CCR differently. Purely a personal choice, definitely not saying GUE is not good for those dives.

 

[Lorenzoid]

If you are not an instructor, but hold a GUE certification, and not doing a GUE dive, why would anyone care whether you follow GUE standards on non-GUE dives?

(Out of curiosity)

@mariosx's thinking makes sense to me. I'm not sure how to define a "non-GUE dive" but I would say it is a dive on which the team is in agreement on the use of something that is inconsistent with the GUE SOPs. I suppose whether anyone else (that is, someone outside of the team) cares, and how much they care, could depend on the context--toward what purpose are they looking at you--and perhaps also how big the deviation is from SOPs. Whether anyone else cares may not matter to the divers in the team if they have no interest in attracting other potential GUE teammates, diving with a GUE-sponsored club, participating in GUE projects, etc. But if they have ambitions of such things, then they might not want to gain a reputation in the GUE community for being a maverick.

After I took Fundies (rec pass) my only ambition was to return to the tropical vacation diving I had long been doing. I wasn't expecting to have anything further to do with GUE. I could have deviated from SOPs to my heart's content, and nobody would have cared. It's not like I ever needed to show the Fundamentals card. But that's at Fundies level. I would think that the further a diver goes in their training beyond Fundies level, the more the diver wants to adhere to SOPs so that the diver can readily participate in the GUE community in the ways I mentioned.