GUE Fundamentals

[ginti]

Yes, I do understand, my 30/30 was 28% oxygen, there was not a problem

Still not a 40m gas according to GUE... anyway what you want to breathe is up to you

Just to be clear, we had a discussion via pm about some of the behaviours you mentioned in some posts go, and I agree with you 100%. But your case and the ones of your community are the only ones I have ever heard.

Some other comments (these are my personal beliefs):
(1) I don't think GUE expects its instructors (or student) to dive within their GUE limits; it expects them to dive within their training limits and not to smoke. I believe that instructors are also expected to avoid non-standard gases (when possible) and solo diving. I may be wrong here.
(2) I believe that you don't need to be CCR2 to do CCR2 dives. According to the map of courses, CCR2=Tech2, and also in some projects the requirement is CCR2 or CCR1+T2 -> this makes me think that T2 and CCR2 are equivalent
(3) CCR in caves... well, hot topic. I don't dive CCR, but I asked some people for curiosity; apparently, there are some important differences between CCR in OW and in overhead, that justifies another curse. But many people say that a lot of experience can overcome these issues. Yes, some divers aren't happy about needing a cave CCR card to use the CCR in overhead environments.

That said, two short last points:
{A} I have never met a GUE instructor diving outside his training, and never heard about it (this is the first time); if you can prove what you're saying, why don't you report him/her to the board? The headquarter cannot do anything if you guys do not send them some information... what are they supposed to do without even knowing?
{B} I understand that you don't like the standards (at least in some cases), nothing wrong with that; I believe that, in your case, TDI/IANTD probably offer a bit more freedom, and we both know there are many cool instructors within these agencies. Really nothing wrong if you take courses from them

 

[barth]

Still not a 40m gas according to GUE... anyway what you want to breathe is up to you

Just to be clear, we had a discussion via pm about some of the behaviours you mentioned in some posts go, and I agree with you 100%. But your case and the ones of your community are the only ones I have ever heard.

Some other comments (these are my personal beliefs):
(1) I don't think GUE expects its instructors (or student) to dive within their GUE limits; it expects them to train within their training limits and not to smoke. I believe that instructors are also expected to avoid non-standard gases (when possible) and solo diving. I may be wrong here.
(2) I believe that you don't need to be CCR2 to do CCR2 dives. According to the map of courses, CCR2=Tech2, and also in some projects the requirement is CCR2 or CCR1+T2 -> this makes me think that T2 and CCR2 are equivalent
(3) CCR in caves... well, hot topic. I don't dive CCR, but I asked some people for curiosity; apparently, there are some important differences between CCR in OW and in overhead, that justifies another curse. But many people say that a lot of experience can overcome these issues. Yes, some divers aren't happy about needing a cave CCR card to use the CCR in overhead environments.

That said, two short last points:
{A} I have never met a GUE instructor diving outside his training, and never heard about it (this is the first time); if you can prove what you're saying, why don't you report him/her to the board? The headquarter cannot do anything if you guys do not send them some information... what are they supposed to do without even knowing?
{B} I understand that you don't like the standards (at least in some cases), nothing wrong with that; I believe that, in your case, TDI/IANTD probably offer a bit more freedom, and we both know there are many cool instructors within these agencies. Really nothing wrong if you take courses from them

I will tell you in my own words what my ccr1 instructor told me. Ccr1 is just like fundamentals. You learn a lot. But it's mod 1 + mod 2. It's already very much for 1 week what you learn at other agency's in two weeks. When there is an issue you have to bailout. Small issues can be solved. But in a lot of cases you have to bailout. In CCr2 and ccr cave you want to stay on the loop if that is possible. Bailout is the last option. Because of that it's not allowed to go deeper then 51 meter, also not with ccr 1 + tech 2. Because of that you're also not allowed to use a ccr in a cave. You have to learn the other options for deep dives and cave dives. That would make sense to me.

(I decided to sell all my oc stuff and do as much dives with my ccr as possible. I did also start cave dives with my ccr but not to get deeper in the cave. But to use helium in the 30 meter range and to keep my cave routine. I also like warm breathing gas in cold water. I think this risk is ok for me. )

There are gue divers (and gue instructors) diving their ccr in a cave deeper then 51 without ccr2 and without ccr cave. They combine their cards (ccr1 + tech2 + cave 2). They are also bringing a dpv during that dive because they did gue dpv cave (oc). I did sent a message to one of them, but we didn't agree. They were telling me they were allowed to do the dives. Different gue instructors are telling different things and standards are not clear.

I did sent an email to GUE regarding the ccr cave. It did help to raise it as a more urgent problem. (I was actually hoping that gue would have a solution for me because at some divesites a ccr cave card is required. )

I did also sent a lot of request for changes to update ccr checklist(s). That is almost 2 years ago. I didn't like the feedback. One year later I did also sent an image of an gue instructor did post it at facebook and did forget to fill one field of his checklist. It was an error which one of my request for change maybe could prevent. There is no need and/or time to improve checklist. I think gue will improve the checklist later. I gave up after almost 2 years. I'm using my own checklists now.

What other people do is none of my business. But it would be nice if other people judge each other less. Then mistakes are also shared more and more is learned from each other.

I did really like the oc training (fundamentals, cave 1, tech 1, cave 2) which I did with gue. I did also like ccr1. But with tho oc training you're doing the dives you want to do in the training. In tech 1 you do wreckdives with trimix and deco gas. In Cave 2 you're doing cave dives with bottomstage and deco stage.

With ccr1 you are doing fundamentals level dives, max 30 meter without stage. You are not doing tech dives. After the training you have discussion with buddies who don't think it's necessary to bring a deco gas for a 40 meter dive with 10 minutes of deco. In a team of 3 gue ccr1 divers I was the only diver who was carrying a deco gas. Last year before I started a tech dive my buddy was asking me at the surface how he culd set his computer in cc mode, because he did never learn to dive with a computer. They didn't learn in tech 1, they did only use a bottomtimer in tech 1. He did also not learn in ccr1 because he did only shallow rec dives. My buddy his perdix was in error after the dive because he didn't know and learn to switch his perdix to sp 1.2 when he did switch his controller from sp 0.7 to sp 1.2. Because he did never learn this. This kind of things are happening when you combine all your cards.... You could expect the same kind of things when people are doing ccr cave dives without the right training and just combine all the cards.

In the past I did cave and tech dives with divers I did never dived with. If they were gue trained for the dives then it was ok for me. Nowadays it's not possible anymore for ccr dives.

 

[ginti]

I will tell you in my own words what my ccr1 instructor told me. Ccr1 is just like fundamentals. You learn a lot. But it's mod 1 + mod 2. It's already very much for 1 week what you learn at other agency's in two weeks. When there is an issue you have to bailout. Small issues can be solved. But in a lot of cases you have to bailout. In CCr2 and ccr cave you want to stay on the loop if that is possible. Bailout is the last option. Because of that it's not allowed to go deeper then 51 meter, also not with ccr 1 + tech 2. Because of that you're also not allowed to use a ccr in a cave. You have to learn the other options for deep dives and cave dives. That would make sense to me.

It makes sense to me as well, but it doesn't mean that GUE expects its instructors and students to behave like that. As you said, standards aren't clear in this regard, and this is comprehensible since CCR is relatively new, and it takes a bit of time to adjust everything. Again, since standards aren't that clear, I believe there is a grey area, and many people are doing what they believe is safe within this area.

There are gue divers (and gue instructors) diving their ccr in a cave deeper then 51 without ccr2 and without ccr cave.

This would probably be an issue, except if they are also tech2.

They combine their cards (ccr1 + cave 2). They are also bringing a dpv during that dive because they did gue dpv cave (oc). I did sent a message to one of them, but we didn't agree. They were telling me they were allowed to do the dives. Different gue instructors are telling different things and standards are not clear.

The fact that you disagree doesn't mean that they or GUE are doing wrong These scenarios are way different from the instructor who got mad because of a photo, acting as a scuba-police

I did sent an email to GUE regarding the ccr cave. It did help to raise it as a more urgent problem. (I was actually hoping that gue would have a solution for me because at some divesites a ccr cave card is required. )

I did also sent a lot of request for changes to update ccr checklist(s). That is almost 2 years ago. I didn't like the feedback. One year later I did also sent an image of an gue instructor did post it at facebook and did forget to fill one field of his checklist. It was an error which one of my request for change maybe could prevent. There is no need and/or time to improve checklist. I think gue will improve the checklist later. I gave up after almost 2 years. I'm using my own checklists now.

You proposed something, well done, but why d you expect GUE agrees with you? They may agree or disagree; maybe, in this case, they disagree with you.

What other people do is none of my business. But it would be nice if other people judge each other less. Then mistakes are also shared more and more is learned from each other.

I couldn't agree more!

 

[Heat Miser]

Problem with the over-standardisation of gasses is it's not always practical nor possible. Helium's very expensive. For example a 45m/150ft dive doesn't need 21/35; a little bit of helium's enough or none if it's not available -- 25/10's better than 25/0. Spending £100/€120/$140 on a 21/35 backgas fill for a 45m/150ft dive just isn't going to happen.

Then there's rebreathers. Whilst it's easier and a lot cheaper to get helium-rich fills, when topping off a cylinder it's unlikely to be a standard gas.

Agreed its the expense of He that's the problem with standard mixes.

However I see Kieren's point, - The one thing I notice GUE people doing is that they use lower max pp02, even on rebreathers they are on setpoint 1.2 whilst I'm on 1.3 on the revo. I guess the point is you can recover from Narcosis/Hypercapnia but not so certainly from Hyperoxia.

here are the ppo2 of GUE mixes at MOD. @barth was on 1.4, which I don't personally have a problem with. But that may change if I could ever do that level of training at GUE

Which leads to the next question @barth why not just dive it with your rebreather? Or did this occur pre- CCR1

 

[ginti]

Agreed its the expense of He that's the problem with standard mixes.

However I see Kieren's point, - The one thing I notice GUE people doing is that they use lower max pp02, even on rebreathers they are on setpoint 1.2 whilst I'm on 1.3 on the revo. I guess the point is you can recover from Narcosis/Hypercapnia but not so certainly from Hyperoxia.

here are the ppo2 of GUE mixes at MOD. @barth was on 1.4, which I don't personally have a problem with. But that may change if I could ever do that level of training at GUE

View attachment 701690

Which leads to the next question @barth why not just dive it with your rebreather? Or did this occur pre- CCR1

GUE says nothing about ppO2, gas density and narcosis.

Scientists propose some numbers, and when there is some sort of consensus, GUE follows.

See this report, page 53:

http://www.recycleur.eu/wa_files/2008TechDiverReport.pdf

http://www.plongeesout.ch/PDF-dateien/2008TechDiverReport.pdf

0% incidents in 319 dives at partial pressures of 0.9-1.2 atm
2% in 299 dives at 1.3 atm
8% in 155 dives at 1.4-1.6 atm
5% in 530 dives at 1.7-2 atm

 

[barth]

Agreed its the expense of He that's the problem with standard mixes.

However I see Kieren's point, - The one thing I notice GUE people doing is that they use lower max pp02, even on rebreathers they are on setpoint 1.2 whilst I'm on 1.3 on the revo. I guess the point is you can recover from Narcosis/Hypercapnia but not so certainly from Hyperoxia.

here are the ppo2 of GUE mixes at MOD. @barth was on 1.4, which I don't personally have a problem with. But that may change if I could ever do that level of training at GUE

View attachment 701690

Which leads to the next question @barth why not just dive it with your rebreather? Or did this occur pre- CCR1

It was before I was using a rebreather otherwise I should have used 18/45.

 

[Wibble]

BTW what Gradient Factors are used for GUE decompression dive planning? Am assuming it's Buhlmann + GF nowadays?

Are computers used for CCR dives or is it still Ratio Deco using a bottom timer and a good memory?

 

[barth]

BTW what Gradient Factors are used for GUE decompression dive planning? Am assuming it's Buhlmann + GF nowadays?

Are computers used for CCR dives or is it still Ratio Deco using a bottom timer and a good memory?

Gf 20/85, I did learn that during gue training and that’s wat I’m still using.

When I did ccr1 I was using a uwatec TEC 2g in gauge mode and the petrel2 ccr controller .

Ratio deco / pragmatic deco or other calculations during the dive are not accurate enough or not even possible anymore for me. When I dive 45 minutes at 30 meter with sp 1.2 I’m breathing 30% oxygen. When I’m diving ean32 my PO2 is 1.3. I have more deco with my JJ then I would have when dive oc. (Most of the dives the rebreather is more effective then oc, but sometimes oc is more effective.)

When I do a dive in a mine at 24 meter I will use trimix as dilluent. That means also trimix as bailout because there is trimix in my D7. I will also bring a 11L ean32 stage as bailout. When I’m 40 minutes in the mine and want to turn and my rebreather stops working I have to bailout and go back 40 minutes. I will start using the ean32 stage. But what if the stage isn’t enough? I will breath 18/45. The 18/45 gives more deco then ean32. I don’t know how I can calculate 40 minutes sp 1.2, 30 minutes ean32 and 10 minutes of 18/45. (I can plan a dive with my decoplanner at my smartphone before the dive starts. I can check bailout scenarios. But I don’t think my deco calculation underwater would be as accurate as my petrel2 or perdix.)

I bought a perdix which is also in cc mode and my bailout gasses are programmed.

I can try to estimate my deco. But that would be the third option when my petrel2 controller and perdix are not working.

 

[BlueTrin]

Gf 20/85, I did learn that during gue training and that’s wat I’m still using.

When I did ccr1 I was using a uwatec TEC 2g in gauge mode and the petrel2 ccr controller .

Ratio deco / pragmatic deco or other calculations during the dive are not accurate enough or not even possible anymore for me. When I dive 45 minutes at 30 meter with sp 1.2 I’m breathing 30% oxygen. When I’m diving ean32 my PO2 is 1.3. I have more deco with my JJ then I would have when dive oc. (Most of the dives the rebreather is more effective then oc, but sometimes oc is more effective.)

When I do a dive in a mine at 24 meter I will use trimix as dilluent. That means also trimix as bailout because there is trimix in my D7. I will also bring a 11L ean32 stage as bailout. When I’m 40 minutes in the mine and want to turn and my rebreather stops working I have to bailout and go back 40 minutes. I will start using the ean32 stage. But what if the stage isn’t enough? I will breath 18/45. The 18/45 gives more deco then ean32. I don’t know how I can calculate 40 minutes sp 1.2, 30 minutes ean32 and 10 minutes of 18/45. (I can plan a dive with my decoplanner at my smartphone before the dive starts. I can check bailout scenarios. But I don’t think my deco calculation underwater would be as accurate as my petrel2 or perdix.)

I bought a perdix which is also in cc mode and my bailout gasses are programmed.

I can try to estimate my deco. But that would be the third option when my petrel2 controller and perdix are not working.

Out of curiosity, are there any plans to change the GfLo in regards to the recent trends with deep stops and higher GfLos?

Only asking out of curiosity: I am a newbie and would certainly not be affected by such a choice of GFLo

 

[Heat Miser]

It was before I was using a rebreather otherwise I should have used 18/45.

View attachment 701703

I haven't seen that before but its conservative, compared to the Gas densities, DI pO2, and ENDS I would target on the revo and reflect your 1.2 setpoint and higher He content. *Not that I have ever dived deeper than 60m.

I was taught to target 5.2 gr/l gas density, dil ppO2 1.1, END of 20-25m off a higher in loop setpoint 1.3

These are yours based off standard gases

But I can see why you were mentioning carrying Deco stages on shallow CCR dives, because of the onboard bailout in the D7 at a dil pO2 o 1,0 you start racking up up deco penalty a bit faster than someone with offboard bailout and higher O2 content

Interesting I thought all thing GUE were better MAYBE I'll have to think a bit about it..