GUE/DIR as cult

[King Kong Matt]

nitroxbabe once bubbled...
Why does someone lose all credibility because they say one thing you don't like?

Go back and re-read the entirety of this thread. I, in a civil manner that was noted by more than one person contributing to this thread, simply pointed out that if Lawman was really interested in answering a question about DIR, he would be better served by a change in tone with fewer emotionally charged words, i.e. cult.

In fact, NitroxBabe, if you re-read the thread, you will note that I conspicuously stated that:

I do not dive DIR, and I am not with you or against you in this cult discussion. I am merely trying to point out that, should you continue in this direction, you will, in my estimation continue to lose some of the credibility that is the only currency on this board. If that is of no consequence to you, so be it.

So, to address your argument more directly, yes, I believe that Lawman has and, through his continued behavior, will continue to lose some credibility on this board. But, your reasoning is faulty. It is not, as you state, because he said one thing that I did not like. To the contrary, I specifically stated that I was not against him, and that I do not dive DIR.

nitroxbabe once bubbled...
If you have a dispute with someone, do they become complete ****?

I never suggested that Lawman was a ****. Those are your words and not mine. I stand by my posts as being pointed, but civil. I don't use words that must be replaced by asterisks online so I would appreciate it if you would refrain from attributing to me your particular choice of words.

 

[devilfish]

MechDiver once bubbled...


I do have a direct question. We have seen lots of discussion concerning the DIRF classes; content, schedules, etc. I am curious as to why there is no, or very little anyway, discussion or threads about the GUE Tech classes?

My opinions, thoughts aside, I am curious why no one says, "hey, I took a Tech 1 class last week" or "whens the next Tech class". There appear to be a fairly good number of divers who have now taken, or want to take the DIRF. Are these folks moving on to the tech classes, happy where they are?

Phil

The more curious question is why does the board allow announcemens of course schedules and locations which seems commercial. My impression was that advertising for commercial purposes was not allowed on the board.

 

[MHK]

kwesler once bubbled...
Your point about the lines between the for profit companies-EE, Halcyon etc. and the non-profit-GUE, being blurry is well taken. Perhaps GUE should take note. Perception is reality...

There is, of course, nothing wrong with a non-profit "making" money. It is called "surplus" of income over expense. However, as long as the surplus is used for Mission oriented activities, and the cause of the surplus is understood everything is ok. Non-profits who sock away large surpluses are not being true to their Mission. The reason they are tax-exempt is because they are supposed to use up ALL available resources in service to their Mission.

Ken

This discussion is getting somewhat off track so let me see if I can provide a little perspective. Let me start out with one disclosure in the interest of full disclosure. I'm an accountant for a living and I was involved in preparing the GUE tax return. That being said, as a non-profit the company's book are a matter of public record and are available if anyone wants to review them as required under applicable law. I think you'll be surprised and how little *money* is involved and as far as a *surplus* goes you don't have to worry about one.. Just think about a few facts to put this into some common sense perspective. GUE has approx 30 instructors worldwide and the primary source of revenue is from issuing c-cards. Now bear in mind it's most popular program, the DIR-F class, does NOT issue a c-card so any potential revenue for the agency from that class is lost.. Accordingly how many cave, tech or rebreather cards do you think were issued, bearing in mind that the tech 1 and tech 2 classes have an approximately 50% failure rate??? Now factor in that we don't have *crew paks*, *patches*, *cd-roms*, or many of the other ancilliary revenue sources that the other agencies have.. Juxtapose that against the for-profit, privately help PADI corporation that advertises on it's very own website that they issued 946,000 c-cards last year at $20 per, or a minimum revenue stream of $18,920,000.. Then add in the crew pak, the cd-rom, the patches and so on and you'll clearly see that the GUE revenue is in the thousands and it doesn't go to the founders..

As far as any potential conflict because of JJ's dual role at Halycon and GUE I guess I fail to see the conflict. On the one hand he fully discloses it up front, he doesn't mandate that you buy Halcyon equipment nor does he suggest in any way, shape or form that we instructors push Halcyon gear so I guess I don't see this huge conflict...

The only gear I don't allow in my classes is certain Posiedon reg's or bondage wings and that is due to safety concerns, not manufacturer's.. Short of that you can wear anything you want as I don't require you to have or buy Halcyon..

I hope that clears up the issue.

Later

 

[nitroxbabe]

BTW - I did read the entire thread.

I am absolutely NOT going to get into a cyber-fight with you. All I am suggesting is that, IMHO, a little more courtesy would suit everyone.

I did not mean to put "nasty words" in your mouth. The potty mouth is all mine and I lay exclusive claim to it.

I personally don't know enough about DIR or GUE to make any comments about this topic. My comment has to do with my perception of the treatment of others on this board. Your post, which I quoted, seemed to sum up many attitudes best and that is why I used it.

I don't need, nor do I want!, an answer to my rhetorical questions. I am just trying to encourage people to think about what they are saying and whether or not they might say the same things if the person were actually present.

King Kong Matt once bubbled...


Go back and re-read the entirety of this thread. I, in a civil manner that was noted by more than one person contributing to this thread, simply pointed out that if Lawman was really interested in answering a question about DIR, he would be better served by a change in tone with fewer emotionally charged words, i.e. cult.

In fact, NitroxBabe, if you re-read the thread, you will note that I conspicuously stated that:

So, to address your argument more directly, yes, I believe that Lawman has and, through his continued behavior, will continue to lose some credibility on this board. But, your reasoning is faulty. It is not, as you state, because he said one thing that I did not like. To the contrary, I specifically stated that I was not against him, and that I do not dive DIR.

I never suggested that Lawman was a ****. Those are your words and not mine. I stand by my posts as being pointed, but civil. I don't use words that must be replaced by asterisks online so I would appreciate it if you would refrain from attributing to me your particular choice of words.

 

[MechDiver]

The more curious question is why does the board allow announcemens of course schedules and locations which seems commercial. My impression was that advertising for commercial purposes was not allowed on the board.

I don't really have a problem with that, its up to the regulators. I have, however, in the short time I have been here, seen a number of "commercial enterprises" going on that obviously are tolerated. Fred's backplates come to mind. I look at those as "value added" posts. If its something you could use, go there, if not, don't. Same with the GUE stuff.

Phil

Edit Note: I removed a comment in this post that mentioned the drysuit underwear that Pug recommends. It sounded as if Pug benefited from sales of those items, which is not the case. I removed the comment to avoid confusion over that statement.
pjk

 

[MikeFerrara]

MHK,
I didn't see anyone suggest a conflict. I know that wasn't my intention in pointing out that "DIR" makes money.

 

[MHK]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
MHK,
I didn't see anyone suggest a conflict. I know that wasn't my intention in pointing out that "DIR" makes money.

Mike I was responding to this post:

Your point about the lines between the for profit companies-EE, Halcyon etc. and the non-profit-GUE, being blurry is well taken. Perhaps GUE should take note. Perception is reality...

So I just wanted to clear up any *perception* problems..

Regards

 

[devilfish]

If anyone in this industry is making money. God bless them, they deserve it as long as they are not cutting corners and do offer a good product or education.

 

[MHK]

MechDiver once bubbled...


I do have a direct question. We have seen lots of discussion concerning the DIRF classes; content, schedules, etc. I am curious as to why there is no, or very little anyway, discussion or threads about the GUE Tech classes?

My opinions, thoughts aside, I am curious why no one says, "hey, I took a Tech 1 class last week" or "whens the next Tech class". There appear to be a fairly good number of divers who have now taken, or want to take the DIRF. Are these folks moving on to the tech classes, happy where they are?

Phil

I'm not sure.. Perhaps the trip reports from the tech 1 are in the tech section or quest.. I actually don't know. I do know that many that take our DIR-F class do ultimately go on to tech 1 but we do want them to practice what we teach them in the DIR-F class before we let them take the tech1.. Our goal isn't to teach them a DIR-F class and then next week teach them a tech1 so perhaps the answer is that many more take the DIR-F class and those that are continuing on to tech 1 usually need 6 months or so to practcie and prepare for tech1..

Good question, I'm just not sure I know the answer..

Later

 

[Lawman]

Nitroxbabe KK has got it into his head that I was asking some question about DIR. I wasn't .I was just making an observation and inviting discussion about the cult like appearance of GUE. Obviously this subject touches some nerves in here..witness over 60 hits since I posted yesterday noon. Some people have real difficulty having a civil discussion about some topics. GUE looks like one of those topics. I just find it odd that adults can get so worked up about something like GUE. It's like bowlers coming to blows over three finger vs. four finger bowling balls.
Go figure.:bonk: