GUE/DIR as cult

[MHK]

newton once bubbled...


Really? I would have thought the DIR-F book was probably their biggest source of revenue at this point, but perhaps JJ and the publisher split the profits, not GUE. Basically, what I'm hearing is that GUE doesn't do *much* with the money it receives (what little there is), and the only public projects are Wakulla and the Britannic, both of which most people would love to dive. Because of this, GUE's involvement seems more self-serving, but I suspect this is because of lack of funds to do much of anything else.

Comparing GUE to Padi

This is irrelevant to the subject at hand. PADI is a for-profit, and GUE is not. Apples and oranges.



The point made was that it doesn't go directly to the founders, but it does provide funds for the founders and close friends for projects such as the Britannic. Even I didn't get paid, I certainly wouldn't mind my expenses paid on a dive trip.



As much as I enjoyed my DIR-F class (which has radically changed my diving), I disagree with the above statement. The DIR-F teaching materials and book are IMO pushing Halcyon gear. An easy example is the backup light. The only backup light recommended in the class was the Scout, and at 3-4X the price of other comparable backup lights. The statements of over-driving the bulbs is mostly smoke and mirrors, but it does serve to add yet another notch in the 'Halcyon is your friend while all other dive manufacturers try to get you killed' catagory. Even the pictures of wings have a obviously 'Halcyon' wing compared against a non-specified wing (obviously an OMS to anyone in the know). The OMS isn't labeled, but the Halcyon is. Halcyon gear is prominently displaed in many of the pictures throughout the book. (To be fair, ScubaPro regulators are also displayed prominently in the book). Halcyon products are often described by name, while few other manufacturers are mentioned.)

If this isn't a conflict of interest, I'm not sure how you would define one. As the leader of a non-profit entity, pushing products for the for-profit company I own would be a serious breach of ethic



If the class would do less 'selling of gear' and instead sell the system, I think it would go a long way towards removing the appearance of conflict. More on facts and less on particular products. Many manufacturers make wings, backup lights, backplates, regulators, etc... Don't focus on a single manufacturer (discussion of Keel (tm) weights and Active Control Ballast (tm)) come to mind.



For DIR-F, yes. For other classes, I would be *very* suprised if some of the GUE instructors allowed non-Halcyon equipment. A plate is a plate, but things like backup lights, canister lights, and wings seem to be frowned on unless they have the big H logo on them.


Nate

Nate,

Let me see if I can respond point by point to your comments:

You are correct about the publisher and JJ, this was an effort that JJ undertook and spent several years writing and is beyond the scope of GUE. However the book has sold approximately 4,000 copies so, once again, the revenue stream isn't what you think it is after shipping, publisher fees, mark-up for dive shops and such.. But in any event that is not a GUE asset.

As to the WKPP, that has NOTHING to do with GUE at all.. That is a project headed by George Irvine [ in the interest of full disclosure I'm a member of the WKPP] and not only is the WKPP not making any money, it costs us money so I don't see the connection.

As to the Britannic, again it was a money looser.. When you consider the costs associated with flying nearly 20 diver's, hotels, food, chartering boats, getting permits, shipping gas to Greece and so on, GUE not only didn't make any money on the project it lost money..

For certain there was the experience of diving the Britannic for many lucky enough to be on the trip, but from an econimic perspective JJ isn't founding an agency so a few of his friends can get to dive the Britannic.. I think the compelling reason behind the Britannic was exposure for the agency, and there are costs associated with that.

As to your presumption about using the DIR-F class, or higher level classes as a sales tool I couldn't disagree anymore with you then I do. If you look at the folowing gear list recommende by GUE you'll notice that Halcyon only forms a small part of teh list:

DUI TLS 350 drysuit
Aquatic Hood
Harvey’s Neoprene Gloves (although some in the colder waters use the dry gloves)
Scuba Pro Jet Fins (Turtle fins in the alternative)
Tusa Mask
Sea Elite manifolds
Highland Millworks Bands
Akona knife
PST or Luxfer cylinders
Barry Miller HID primary light
Barry Miller Scout lights (backup)
Suunto compass
Uwatec bottom timer
Apex or Scuba Pro reg’s
If using a computer, a suunto

And then of course the BP and wings. I believe Halcyon is the best quality but as we have said often, as long as the wings are not bondage wings, most will suffice.

As to your point about backup lights, please note that JJ doesn't own the company, we just happen to believe they do the job we need them to do.. They're sturdy, they're streamlinned, they're durable, they have no switches that turn on accidentally and so on..

I've taught many classes and I've taken my share of GUE classes and I've seen neither pressure to buy Halcyon when I was a student nor when I teach. Do we recommend gear that we think is more efficent, of course see the above list, but making a gear recommendation, in my view, is part of what you should be paying an instructor for.. We have reasons why we recommend everything, and we'll provide them.. Furthermore, most of the changes that JJ, George and Robert made to Halcyon is because Lamaar refused to make them to DiveRite saying that there was no market for such *high end* gear.. So Halcyon was formed as a result of manufacturer's refusing to make changes and meeting demands of diving. I see that as a positive since now most manufacturer's are trying to match the quality..

So I guess I just don't see the same as you interms of *selling gear* because I know I don't do it..

Hope that helps..

Later

 

[spaz]

MHK,
I appreciate your frankness, and professionalism.
Kristopher

 

[cmay]

spaz once bubbled...
MHK,
I appreciate your frankness, and professionalism.
Kristopher

ditto here

 

[WJL]

Lawman

I am a GUE member. I train as a DIR diver. You have requested a direct reply to your assertions that:

1) GUE/DIR is a cult, and,

2) GUE/DIR adherents are governed by high emotion (with the unstated implication that you are not).

I doubt that you have any real interest in any reply to these assertions, since you have admitted that your post is a troll. Someone else, however, may have a sincere interest, so I'll try to deal with your statements on their own terms.

GUE/DIR is Not a Cult

"Cult," as you are no doubt aware, was originally defined as "religious practice." The word has come to have generally perjorative connotations in contemporary discourse. See, e.g., Webster's Third New International Dictionary, "6 c (2) a usually small or narrow circle of persons united by devotion or allegiance to some artisitic or intellectual program, tendency or figure (as one of limited popular appeal)." "Cult" is commonly used to describe groups of crackpots with extreme views generally held in ridicule by the majority of society, and certainly not held by the person applying the label. In view of the derogatory nature of the word, those accused of being cult members are unlikely to accept the label with equanimity.

To support your assertion that GUE/DIR is a cult you offer these items (culled from several of your posts): uniforms, a doctrine of superiority, a charismatic leader, a desire to crush heresy, and hostility to those who question GUE/DIR. If I have excluded any please let me know. These assertions are either false premises or not uniquely associated with cult behavior.

Uniformity/Heresy A backplate, harness and wing are essential DIR equipment components. In DIR philosophy, these and other components are considered essential not because of delivered dogma from the heavens, but because long experience has shown them to be optimal. One of the points of the DIR system is to standardize dive gear, and to practice using it individually and as a team to the point of proficiency. DIR divers believe that this will promote safety, skill and teamwork. Similar reasons lie behind the Army's decision to use standard issue equipment and to train its soldiers to use it, rather than permitting each to go to a sporting goods store and buy what he or she likes. Standardization and repeated practice of standard techniques is thought by GUE/DIR teachers to produce divers who are comfortable, confident and competent. I suspect this is what you mean by "uniforms." Many divers claim to see little value in DIR style standardization. These divers generally disdain DIR techniques and reasoning, preferring a more laissez faire approach to diving. Whether you agree or disagree with the reasons for DIR equipment standardization, it is not reasonable to describe standard DIR equipment as a "uniform." There is no DIR "uniform" in the sense of arbitrarily chosen apparel required to be worn for no other reason than having people look the same. Deviation from DIR techniques is discouraged because it is considered sub-optimal for a variety of reasons, not out of a desire to enforce DIR orthodoxy for its own sake.

Superiority GUE advocates that all divers be taught and practice certain skills. At the basic level, these include precise control of bouyancy under all circumstances, absolute situational and buddy awareness, the drilled-in safety skills of managing equipment and air sharing emergencies under water, and other knowledge and skills. Divers from all certifying agencies can and do demonstrate these same skills. Acquiring and demonstrating the performance of these skills are generally recognized as the hallmark of superior divers. GUE seems to be unique, however, in demanding these skills of all divers as a basic necessity of safe diving. Even divers with limited experience, such as me, can recognize that certain people are better in the water than others, and that many divers lack the skills GUE believes are fundamental. GUE believes that its training will and does produce superior divers. This claim is subject to objective testing. Most reasonable observers would agree that divers with the skill set required by GUE are superior to divers who lack those skills. This statement is true whether or not the diver in question acquired those skills from GUE training or by some other means. It is unreasonable to accuse GUE/DIR of being a cult for advocating a level of skill which all agencies agree is superior to those generally exhibited by the average diver.

Charismatic Leader By this I presume you refer to Jarrod Jablonski. JJ is recognized inside and outside GUE as a highly-skilled diver who has many noteworthy achievements in diving, but I know of no one, except perhaps his mother, who has described him as "charismatic." His opinions are respected and his advice followed mainly because he makes sense, and his techniques have succeeded under extreme conditions, while those advocating different techniques have failed. JJ does not haunt the Internet. JJ does not harangue mass meetings of DIR divers under guttering torches and fluttering banners. GUE teaches DIR techniques in small classes which last a few days, using a small cadre of instructors. Mike Kane (MHK) is one of them. If you want to learn about DIR, and see a superior diver in the water, go diving with him. If you can't get to Southern California where Mike lives, there will be another DIR Fundamentals class in the Detroit area in the spring.

Hostility/High Emotion So far in this thread, the hostility has come not from DIR proponents but from you, despite your simpering denials. You are the one comparing GUE to a cult. So far you have sneered that GUE/DIR divers dive "wearing a long hose wrapped around your neck" and "wearing a cave diving outfit to dive a 20' reef." These are either examples of surprising ignorance or deliberate misstatements intended to provoke a reaction. You also posted this:

Lawman once bubbled...
Well I see our time is up for today. I think the Group made
excellent progress getting these Issues out. We still need to work on our anger managment though. In our next session we'll explore why GUE people need to have a longer hose than everyone else. What does that signify? Could it be compensation for some other ...shortage? Dr. Freud will join our next session to help answer the question "Does size matter?"

This puerile missive both suggests that you have some issues for which you may need counselling from a competent therapist, and also reveals your latent hostility. Kane has repeatedly offered to answer any actual questions you may have about GUE or DIR, in a polite and respectful manner that your postings do not deserve. Why don't you take him up on it?

 

[Lawman]

MHK thank you for a concise, cogent explanation. I learned more about GUE in that one post than from the first 80 pages of Rokeys. Interesting, excellent writing style, non-judgmental.

A+

 

[Lawman]

Newton try to read as precisely as you dive.

 

[newton]

MHK once bubbled...

As to the WKPP, that has NOTHING to do with GUE at all.. That is a project headed by George Irvine [ in the interest of full disclosure I'm a member of the WKPP] and not only is the WKPP not making any money, it costs us money so I don't see the connection.

To an outside observer, there is an obvious connection. The WKPP site points people to the GUE site for updates, and the GUE site mentions WKPP in it's research portion of the site. If you were donating money, wouldn't you assume that GUE research would be where your donations would go?

As to the Britannic, again it was a money looser.. When you consider the costs associated with flying nearly 20 diver's, hotels, food, chartering boats, getting permits, shipping gas to Greece and so on, GUE not only didn't make any money on the project it lost money..

I have no doubt it lost money. However, the appearance of it being partially funded by GUE (I have no idea if GUE used the donations on the dive, but it certainly appears so) gives it the appearance that money donated to GUE helps to fund dive trips. If I claim to be a non-profit, will you partially pay for my next dive trip. I promise I won't make any money on it, and I'll even spend some of my own money in the process if it makes you feel better.

For certain there was the experience of diving the Britannic for many lucky enough to be on the trip, but from an econimic perspective JJ isn't founding an agency so a few of his friends can get to dive the Britannic.. I think the compelling reason behind the Britannic was exposure for the agency, and there are costs associated with that.

I understand completely. However, as I stated before, the only public research projects attributed to GUE seem to be boon-dogles for the founders. We don't hear of any other noble uses of the funds. (Again, I suspect this is mainly due to the small amount of funds, but to an outside observer looking in, it doesn't encourage me to donate.)

As to your presumption about using the DIR-F class, or higher level classes as a sales tool I couldn't disagree anymore with you then I do. If you look at the folowing gear list recommende by GUE you'll notice that Halcyon only forms a small part of teh list:

Where was this list? I didn't see anything like this on the GUE site.

Now, I agree with the portions of this list, but this information is gleaned from George's WKPP site. Again, the DIR-F book explicitly mentions Halcyon and has many, many pictures of Halcyon gear with the logo prominently, but few other manufacturers are mentioned or have their logo displayed. (Except for ScubaPro regulators, as previously mentioned).

And then of course the BP and wings. I believe Halcyon is the best quality but as we have said often, as long as the wings are not bondage wings, most will suffice.

For what it's worth, for my single-tank setup, the Halcyon wing is the only wing choice at this time. For doubles I'm not yet qualified to answer it personally, but others seem to think that there are other manufacturers who make usable wings.

As to your point about backup lights, please note that JJ doesn't own the company

Good point. I believe Robert Carmichael (of Brownie's) owns the company. However, JJ is the CEO, and I assume gets some monetary compensation when people buy Halcyon gear. ut:

... we just happen to believe they do the job we need them to do.. They're sturdy, they're streamlinned, they're durable, they have no switches that turn on accidentally and so on..

And there are no other lights that fit the bill? That is certainly the impression both the book and my DIR instructors gave me. (I actually disagree with the assertion about bulb overdriving. IMO, it's a marketing gimmeck to sell more Halcyon gear) FWIW, I have a really old UK light that appears to be the pre-decessor of the Scout. It's the same form-factor and setup as the Scout, but I've had mine for years. Oh, it's not black, so it's probably not DIR. )

I've taught many classes and I've taken my share of GUE classes and I've seen neither pressure to buy Halcyon when I was a student nor when I teach.

One could argue that you are somewhat biased as well. I certainly felt that I needed to buy Halcyon gear to be a DIR diver, or more to the point, that Halcyon gear is the only manufacturer that caters to the DIR diver. This is fairly obvious from the plethora of questions asked on technical portion of the board. Do I buy a Dive-Rite, OMS, FredT, GUTS, etc... widget, and almost always the answer is to buy a Halcyon. Obviously *someone* thinks that either Halcyon equipment is the only qualified equipment, or that it's the only equipment worth buying. (I'm leaning towards the former instead of the latter, since I truly believe that other manfacturers are just as capable of creating usable/safe equipment for the techincal diver).

However, to bring things back to reality, I do have some Halcyon gear. My wife and I both have Pioneer setups, and we love them. I would be hard-pressed to switch to something else. My DIR-F course completely (!!) changed the way I dive. In that regard, both GUE and Halcyon have made a very positive contribution to my life.

However, I still have issue with the commercialism of the DIR-F course materials, as well as the real or perceived conflict of interest between GUE, EE, Halcyon, Gavin, and the non-profit status of the GUE.

Again, thanks for answering me query, and sorry for the length of the reply....


Nate

 

[Spectre]

I understand where lawman is coming from, and I tend to agree a bit. It's not that GUE is a cult, or DIR is a cult, but there is a fringe to DIR that perpetuates the opinion.

Their leader? GI3. I've seen _far_ too much what I would consider blind faith. Some examples [meant as pure examples and not to offend fellow board participants] have been seen here. There was a thread that looked like a scamble to make sense of GI3's decision to go with a clear mask skirt; as well as many other things along those same lines. I have heard DIR divers say to me that they used to make sure they understand the reasoning behind recommendations, and they've since given up and now follow GI3's recommendations without question.

The DIR fringe is the ones that beat DIR into people; Attacking their gear choice decisions and "strokery". Forcing their way on others whenever they see an opening. They do more to destroy the DIR image then they help it. It's those members of the DIR fringe that see the abrasiveness of GI3's internet posts, and try to emulate that behavior.

No, I don't see being DIR as being a member of a cult. I don't see GUE as a cult. I do see that fringe of blind followers to GI3 as being quite cult-like in their behavior, and that is where the cult image [and the major hurdle for the DIR movement] comes from.

 

[O-ring]

There was a thread that looked like a scamble to make sense of GI3's decision to go with a clear mask skirt

I thought that thread was very non-cult-like...a cult would have said, ok, charismatic leader switched to clear skirts so let's all switch to clear skirts. What we did in that thread is talk about why the disconnect in recommendations coming from GUE vs. GI3/WKPP...if anything it was questioning DIR rather than giving in to cult mentality. As a matter of fact, we ended up agreeing that what mattered is what you wanted in a mask and not what either GUE or GI3 said you wanted...

 

[MikeFerrara]

Here are my questions...

What is the issue?
Making money isn't bad is it?
Is someone suggesting there is something improper about the arrangement?

Here are some observations...

There is a connection between WKPP and the other entities Halcyon, GUE, EE ect. The connection is DIR The WKPP provides credebility to the system. Things like world records and stuff. There is no better advertisement. Halcyon makes the equipment (I realize they just distribute some of it.). EE sells the equipment.

If I'm not mistaken 5thd (big DIR players) consists of multiple retail locations. I'll bet they sell a bunch of stuff with each DIRF they put on. As a side note...they just did a class in my backyard and I bet they sold equipment that as a Halcyon dealer I was unable to sell because I'm not a GUE instructor. In any case AG is in this to make money.

IMO, none of this means that any of these people are doing anything improper.

Although I do see a danger here. In this industry we use classes to sell equipment. That's where the money is. A good instructor selling good equipment is providing a service. The problem is that the instructor can't always choose the equipment he has to sell even if he owns the store. Even if it isn't happening now I see the potential for the same conflicts of interest that are apparent throughout the industry.

If I had my way. The manufacturers would sell their own stuff. Dive shops would provide training, gas and service. I don't care if the agency is for profit. I don't like the idea of an instructor selling equipment.
When you read this keep in mind that I am an instructor and I own a dive shop. the two don't go together. I talk divers out of buying more things than I sell. Having a concience as an instructor has definately killed my retail business. I don't sell much Halcyon because I'm not a GUE instructor. I can't get a descent buck for a classes because they give training away down the street to sell junk equipment.

IMO, the mixing of training and equipment sales will always have the potential to cause problems.