GUE/DIR as cult

[nicodaemos]

Your viewpoint should never be the reason for losing respect. Even if I disagree with you, I will always respect your right to your own opinion. What loses respect and credibility is the method by which you try to communicate your opinion to others.

Let's say you are of the opinion that drinking is bad for people's health. Well, you could tell your friends and acquaintances about it at parties, you could write op-ed pieces in the local newspaper and you could even stand on a streetcorner telling everyone who passed by about the evils of alcohol. No problem.

But lets say that instead of these, you decided to walk into a movie theater, yell fire and then start preaching to the people outside in the parking lot about your views. Well then people are going to have a problem. How about if you advertise 'free drinks at Lenny's bar on Fri' in the local paper and then at the bar only serve non-alcoholic drinks and your sermon. You're going to lose some credibility for the bait and switch tactics.

The same goes for this thread. The starter knew and readily admitted that it was troll-like and added kerosene to the fire by using inflammatory words such as cult. Now here's the real kicker -- he never really told us his viewpoint! He said, "At the risk of being a troll, it appears to me that GUE/DIR has the makings of a diving cult." Mmm.... the food in my fridge has the makings of an PB&J sandwich. But it also has the makings of a hot braised chicken dinner. So what is my view of the food in my fridge?

But this is what trolls do. They don't try to have a meaningful discussion in which people's opinions are expressed, they try to create an emotional outburst using hotbuttons and inflammatory words. Being trained on how to use words as weapons, a lawyer is much better at doing this than the average troll.

 

[MechDiver]

Nitroxbabe KK has got it into his head that I was asking some question about DIR. I wasn't .I was just making an observation and inviting discussion about the cult like appearance of GUE. Obviously this subject touches some nerves in here..witness over 60 hits since I posted yesterday noon. Some people have real difficulty having a civil discussion about some topics. GUE looks like one of those topics. I just find it odd that adults can get so worked up about something like GUE. It's like bowlers coming to blows over three finger vs. four finger bowling balls.
Go figure.:bonk:

No, you setup a troll. It worked. Pat yourself on the back. The "I am innocent" routine IS getting a little old though...

 

[Bob3]

Some of the Poseidon's are *upstream* regulators and as such if, or when, they fail they will fail closed.. .

In theory this may seem to be correct, yet when the servo valve starts to "get sick", it will begin to gradually freeflow over an extended period of time before it pukes all the way. Neither myself nor any of the Poseidon techs I've spoken with have ever heard of one crapping out like a switch was hit.

 

[Aquamaniac]

MHK once bubbled...


This discussion is getting somewhat off track so let me see if I can provide a little perspective................ <snip>

........................I hope that clears up the issue.

Later

Many thanks for the insight and input MHK, its great to see some facts on these issues, rather than innuendo.
GUE should be proud to have you as a board contributor.

Dave

 

[nitroxbabe]

Ya know what, so maybe Lawman did set up a troll. If I don't like something, I don't look at it.

IMHO, I don't think any less of Lawman for it. I can appreciate the humor of all the people he "hooked" by "trolling" - there's people out there right now with hooks in their lips. But who bit the lure?

For someone to lose credibility in MY eyes, he/she would have to do something inexcusable. Inexcusable to me is stealing from me, lying, giving dangerous advice, making a racist remark, etc. Inexcusable to me is not trolling.

But of course ya'll are entitled to your opinions. It's a free country.

 

[newton]

MHK once bubbled...

GUE has approx 30 instructors worldwide and the primary source of revenue is from issuing c-cards.

Really? I would have thought the DIR-F book was probably their biggest source of revenue at this point, but perhaps JJ and the publisher split the profits, not GUE. Basically, what I'm hearing is that GUE doesn't do *much* with the money it receives (what little there is), and the only public projects are Wakulla and the Britannic, both of which most people would love to dive. Because of this, GUE's involvement seems more self-serving, but I suspect this is because of lack of funds to do much of anything else.

Comparing GUE to Padi

This is irrelevant to the subject at hand. PADI is a for-profit, and GUE is not. Apples and oranges.

... GUE revenue is in the thousands and it doesn't go to the founders..

The point made was that it doesn't go directly to the founders, but it does provide funds for the founders and close friends for projects such as the Britannic. Even I didn't get paid, I certainly wouldn't mind my expenses paid on a dive trip.

As far as any potential conflict because of JJ's dual role at Halycon and GUE I guess I fail to see the conflict. On the one hand he fully discloses it up front, he doesn't mandate that you buy Halcyon equipment nor does he suggest in any way, shape or form that we instructors push Halcyon gear so I guess I don't see this huge conflict...

As much as I enjoyed my DIR-F class (which has radically changed my diving), I disagree with the above statement. The DIR-F teaching materials and book are IMO pushing Halcyon gear. An easy example is the backup light. The only backup light recommended in the class was the Scout, and at 3-4X the price of other comparable backup lights. The statements of over-driving the bulbs is mostly smoke and mirrors, but it does serve to add yet another notch in the 'Halcyon is your friend while all other dive manufacturers try to get you killed' catagory. Even the pictures of wings have a obviously 'Halcyon' wing compared against a non-specified wing (obviously an OMS to anyone in the know). The OMS isn't labeled, but the Halcyon is. Halcyon gear is prominently displaed in many of the pictures throughout the book. (To be fair, ScubaPro regulators are also displayed prominently in the book). Halcyon products are often described by name, while few other manufacturers are mentioned.)

If this isn't a conflict of interest, I'm not sure how you would define one. As the leader of a non-profit entity, pushing products for the for-profit company I own would be a serious breach of ethic

Yes, JJ owns Halcyon, and he is obviously biased towards producing gear that he feels is best. If nothing else, this certainly gives the appearance of conflict.

If the class would do less 'selling of gear' and instead sell the system, I think it would go a long way towards removing the appearance of conflict. More on facts and less on particular products. Many manufacturers make wings, backup lights, backplates, regulators, etc... Don't focus on a single manufacturer (discussion of Keel (tm) weights and Active Control Ballast (tm)) come to mind.

Short of that you can wear anything you want as I don't require you to have or buy Halcyon..

For DIR-F, yes. For other classes, I would be *very* suprised if some of the GUE instructors allowed non-Halcyon equipment. A plate is a plate, but things like backup lights, canister lights, and wings seem to be frowned on unless they have the big H logo on them.


Nate

 

[roakey]

MechDiver once bubbled...
I am curious as to why there is no, or very little anyway, discussion or threads about the GUE Tech classes

Because most (not all) of the people at that level aren't interested in a board that's still arguing about if you should bring snorkels along or not.

MHK being a glaring exception to that rule.

There's lots of discussion from the Tech types on the DIR/Quest list, which you get access to by joining GUE (http://www.gue.com/)

Roak

 

[roakey]

nicodaemos once bubbled...
Your viewpoint should never be the reason for losing respect. Even if I disagree with you, I will always respect your right to your own opinion.

You’re right, but ignorance and misinformation and the repetition of such in the face of data to the contrary IS cause to lose respect. This is happening in spades with Lawman’s posts in addition to his hypocritically calling for a rational discussion and in the same breath still calling GUE a cult.

I gave him the choice of ignorant or stupid, where ignorance can be cured. I went back and found other posts of his in GUE discussions; he knew exactly what he was doing with this base note. I have concluded that he’s not ignorant.

He’s nothing but a troll and as such has been put in my non-entity category. The only thing he succeeded in doing is setting a new high water mark for wasting people’s time, surpassing the Farallon scooter question a month or so back (http://www.scubaboard.com/t17249/s.html)

Roak

 

[MechDiver]

people at that level aren't interested in a board that's still arguing about if you should bring snorkels along or not.

At that level? Yea, right.
At least you kept true to form.

At least Kane answered the question in the manner it was asked.

Next time, just don't bother Roak.

 

[roakey]

MechDiver once bubbled...
people at that level aren't interested in a board that's still arguing about if you should bring snorkels along or not.

At that level? Yea, right.
At least you kept true to form.

At least Kane answered the question in the manner it was asked.

Next time, just don't bother Roak.

You seem to think that my statement was a slam, I’m sorry you misunderstood. For its level, this is a great board. The Tech I, II and III types are interested in the nuances of deco for example so this board has too low a signal to noise level. That’s a statement of fact, not an insult. The snorkel statement was an example. There are discussions around if you should bring a snorkel diving or not, and the Tech types aren’t interested in stuff like that. Another statement of fact.

For the people that peruse this board, it’s a fantastic resource.

And least you misunderstand something else, I don’t put myself at “that level.”

Roak