GUE and Sidemount position ?

[RainPilot]

I don’t wet connect except in unusual circumstances. I hook up before I drop and disconnect wet to hand tanks up. It’s a lot less hassle getting in and out of boats (the usual SM curse) since there is no tucking of hoses and packing up bottles and such when kitting up.

I put the whole rig on, less tanks, before I even get in the boat. All hoses are routed and aside from less weight, there’s no difference from back mount. I have my tanks next to me and just before drop I clip in, bungee, connect QC6 and drop.

To get out, I wet disconnect, clip off and hand up.

This is in my normal rec diving, obviously when doing gas switches or handing off a bottle then a few drops will end up in the manifold eventually. I service it once a year and so far no corrosion (it’s a tank valve to all intents and purposes)

 

[Dan_P]

DSS backplates and wings are call it $500 each, and the Katana is $500.
$1500 and you get 3 fully equipped rigs vs a single rig. One lightweight plate, one ss plate, 1 wing customized to your singles diving, one to your doubles, and one that will handle steel or ali doubles.
I save $300, and get 3 separate rigs.

I see your point and I'll say that on one hand you're right - the difference is I've counted in that my doubles would stay doubles, my single (steel) would stay single and any alu (deco/stage) tanks would stay separate. With Z, you get one 80 for OWD, another for deeper dives and a 40 for O2, then add another 80 for the 60m range.
That's landed us on completely different calculations, of course, fair or not.
In fairness though, you could dive a single 80 alu and refit a 2nd with a manifold bridge every time you need doubles, adding extra weight separately, which would keep the tank cost consistent. But it's hardly practical.

I saw the Z-system at DEMA last year. AG went over it with me. I do understand the philosophy behind it. I'm still on the fence and I have absolutely no skin in this game other than cave training is in my future and sidemount is my configuration of choice when diving for fun.

One concern of mine is the issue that was brought up for wet connects. To me, this is a big negative. Your thoughts? I'm asking sincerely, not as a way to belittle (as there is no tone of voice in text).

Hey mate, I remember having a quick chat about it, I hope you enjoyed DEMA too

Personally, I don't see it as a concern because 1) it's possible to rinse it out and/or service more often if one wishes, but 2) most of what I see in service are in pretty neat condition

 

[JohnnyC]

In my mind, if you want a manifolded sidemount system, the lola valves are the way to go. The theory of primary donate at all times if nice, but it certainly adds complexity in implementation. The Z-System even more so. I think the failure point argument isn't so much of an issue, Swagelok gear is pretty bomb proof, but it's definitely a bunch of extra stuff. One of the paragons of sidemount is simplicity, adding significant complexity under the auspices of maintaining one specific protocol isn't a good enough reason for me.

I feel like if the lack of constant primary donate were truly an issue in sidemount diving, we'd be hearing about lots of cases where divers were kicking off because they went OOG and in a 3 Stooges-esque comedy of errors never found the right one.

Ultimately, different strokes for different folks. I'm sure his deathtrap autopilot rebreather and tetris style sidemount gear will come up while rainpilot and I are sharing a pint tomorrow, but it's certainly not going to affect our ability to have a cold one.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I see your point and I'll say that on one hand you're right - the difference is I've counted in that my doubles would stay doubles, my single (steel) would stay single and any alu (deco/stage) tanks would stay separate. With Z, you get one 80 for OWD, another for deeper dives and a 40 for O2, then add another 80 for the 60m range.
That's landed us on completely different calculations, of course, fair or not.
In fairness though, you could dive a single 80 alu and refit a 2nd with a manifold bridge every time you need doubles, adding extra weight separately, which would keep the tank cost consistent. But it's hardly practical.



Hey mate, I remember having a quick chat about it, I hope you enjoyed DEMA too

Personally, I don't see it as a concern because 1) it's possible to rinse it out and/or service more often if one wishes, but 2) most of what I see in service are in pretty neat condition

Maybe I can meetup with Ryan C before/during/after DEMA to see one in a pool.

Here is one thing. I realize there is A LOT I don't know, so when it comes to a subject that I'm largely uninformed (as I have no cave training or advanced wreck penetration training), when I see strong resistance from people whose knowledge/opinion I respect, I do hesitate. That doesn't mean my mind is closed, it just means that I keep pondering over it as I learn. I think that is reasonable. I do understand (and I'm not accusing anyone of this) that there is a lot of drinking of Kool Aid in diving and also people can be unreasonably resistant to change.

 

[RainPilot]

In my mind, if you want a manifolded sidemount system, the lola valves are the way to go. The theory of primary donate at all times if nice, but it certainly adds complexity in implementation. The Z-System even more so. I think the failure point argument isn't so much of an issue, Swagelok gear is pretty bomb proof, but it's definitely a bunch of extra stuff. One of the paragons of sidemount is simplicity, adding significant complexity under the auspices of maintaining one specific protocol isn't a good enough reason for me.

I feel like if the lack of constant primary donate were truly an issue in sidemount diving, we'd be hearing about lots of cases where divers were kicking off because they went OOG and in a 3 Stooges-esque comedy of errors never found the right one.

Ultimately, different strokes for different folks. I'm sure his deathtrap autopilot rebreather and tetris style sidemount gear will come up while rainpilot and I are sharing a pint tomorrow, but it's certainly not going to affect our ability to have a cold one.

You’re buying the first one for that.

 

[Dan_P]

Maybe I can meetup with Ryan C before/during/after DEMA to see one in a pool.

Here is one thing. I realize there is A LOT I don't know, so when it comes to a subject that I'm largely uninformed (as I have no cave training or advanced wreck penetration training), when I see strong resistance from people whose knowledge/opinion I respect, I do hesitate. That doesn't mean my mind is closed, it just means that I keep pondering over it as I learn. I think that is reasonable. I do understand (and I'm not accusing anyone of this) that there is a lot of drinking of Kool Aid in diving and also people can be unreasonably resistant to change.

Smart!
I'm sure Ryan will be happy to help, he's a sound geezer.
Scepticism is more than warranted and welcome, I hope you find the time and opportunity to dive the Z

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Smart!
I'm sure Ryan will be happy to help, he's a sound geezer.
Scepticism is more than warranted and welcome, I hope you find the time and opportunity to dive the Z

I probably won't make a decision until after I take cave training (hopefully by Tom Steiner or Alex Bueb) and advanced wreck penetration with Andy Davis. With the amazing woman that came into my life 8 months ago, the timeline for all my diving goals has become seriously disrupted. But I won't complain!

 

[PfcAJ]

I feel like if the lack of constant primary donate were truly an issue in sidemount diving, we'd be hearing about lots of cases where divers were kicking off because they went OOG and in a 3 Stooges-esque comedy of errors never found the right one.

I think a more likely scenario would be the qc6 coming unplugged leaving a diver with nothing immediate to breath. Not being able to get a reg going was a factor on Sherwood Schile's death.

 

[PfcAJ]

Z system reminds me of the Mares HUB.

 

[Dan_P]

I think a more likely scenario would be the qc6 coming unplugged

If we're assuming that lost gas on the active bottle is the more likely issue, we're assuming we're diving a system that we don't know basic failure responses to, without the option of resolving the issue by way of methodology taught to rote since the OWD level - and on top of that, what, you're advocating instead that we opt for a solution that puts your other breathable bottle right smack next to all your deco bottles, forcing you to solo an impulsive, OOG gas-switch.

Wonderful. Number one killer of techies, right there.