Ginnie Springs Map

[Cave Bum]

Maps can be inaccurate and incomplete, the best way to learn the cave is to dive it.

Its very difficult to get good maps for most caves anyway.

My guess is you've never seen Jeff's map.

It is extremely accurate in depth, restrictions and scale; and it includes the entire system on one sheet...

But the biggest difference I see is that it has all the guidelines drawn in on it. I haven't seen that on other cave maps. It lets you more accurately plan the dive and to know where you're going to be putting in jump reels.

IMHO Jeff's map is the reason Ginnie is such a great place to get experience in each step along the road of cave diving skills. Whether you're doing The Bat circuit for the first time, trying to find the White Room or you're an advanced diver scootering back to explore Sweet Surprise, Jeff's map lets plan the dive safely and accurately, showing exactly how many jump reels to take.

I can't say that about the Peacock map. Try to use that to figure out the Grand Tranverse. Or to find the entrance to lower Orange Groove or the depth. Or the P3 map to find Hendley's Castle...

With a nod to Tegg, maps are not a substitute for experience and should only be used as a guide to plan your dive. There is no substitute for learning the cave through progressive penetration.

Bruce

 

[Cave Bum]

I don't think a map prevents it, but it certainly enables a diver to get much further into the system than if they were looking for passages on their own. A map combined with such a well lined and marked cave like Ginnie makes it where a diver can find almost anything their first dive in the system. Give a map as accurate as Jeff's to someone who's been reading up online, and the temptation to start swimming to places that they'd never find on their own is pretty strong.

I'm guessing that's what Tegg was trying to say....shrug.

I agree! In the above post I said:

With a nod to Tegg, maps are not a substitute for experience and should only be used as a guide to plan your dive. There is no substitute for learning the cave through progressive penetration.

That, too, is what I think he was saying and, if so, I agree wholeheartedly!

 

[kosap1]

the temptation to start swimming to places that they'd never find on their own is pretty strong.

I'm guessing that's what Tegg was trying to say....shrug.

I think that if you are going to reply to this (or any for that matter) thread that you should start from the beginning.

At no time have I said that I am going to go and jump in and just go exploring. Most of the people writing here got that part and have been writing about the map. And I thank you guys for reading the thread and understanding where I am coming from and what my plan is. Some, however; keep going on about me diving Ginnie being inexperienced and doing something stupid.

I know OW divers die in caves, I know that without the proper training, equipment, experience with shorter penetration dives and the experience of diving with people who are very experienced cave divers, I should not dive in a cave, cave like environment, or even look in one.

I realize that some of these posts are geared towards others reading these posts which I'm sure is very helpful. But when I became an instructor I learned about something called "constructive criticism". I would encourage someone who is about to write something negative to use that method. It actually does enrich the community.

I have been reading a lot of posts on this site about everything from basic open water dives to what gear to use to tech diving and it seems as though some people like to come on here and just attack others. If you are going to try to share your experiences with others to help them enrich their diving abilities why not actually do that.

I know I have not been a member here for very long but come on guys, is this how we want to get new members?

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

My guess is you've never seen Jeff's map.

It is extremely accurate in depth, restrictions and scale; and it includes the entire system on one sheet...

But the biggest difference I see is that it has all the guidelines drawn in on it. I haven't seen that on other cave maps. It lets you more accurately plan the dive and to know where you're going to be putting in jump reels.

IMHO Jeff's map is the reason Ginnie is such a great place to get experience in each step along the road of cave diving skills. Whether you're doing The Bat circuit for the first time, trying to find the White Room or you're an advanced diver scootering back to explore Sweet Surprise, Jeff's map lets plan the dive safely and accurately, showing exactly how many jump reels to take.

I can't say that about the Peacock map. Try to use that to figure out the Grand Tranverse. Or to find the entrance to lower Orange Groove or the depth. Or the P3 map to find Hendley's Castle...

With a nod to Tegg, maps are not a substitute for experience and should only be used as a guide to plan your dive. There is no substitute for learning the cave through progressive penetration.

Bruce

Sure, I've seen Jeff's map. Its a great map, but its still not complete. Its hard to make a complete map in an ever growing system.

You haven't seen mainlines drawn on other cave maps? Obviously you haven't looked at many. They can be found on several of the more popular maps, and they can be helpfull... until the line placement changes. Dive the area first and you can verify personally where the line is and where a jump is located and if its necessary.

The biggest thing you seem to dismiss is that Ginnie isn't the only cave out there...not by far.

I believe your mistaken... (well I know it for a fact, but anyway...)

Look at the experts... the first thing they'll do when you ask them about a cave or go to dive a cave with them is pull out a looseleaf notebook with zerox copies of handdrawn maps from everyone they could wheedle a copy from.

Maybe the "experts" have access to library of accurate and complete zerox copies of napkins with hand drawn maps on them. The rest of us normal divers don't. If we're lucky, we can find a crap map on the interweb... or have someone who's been there draw up an original on the back of a whatever garbage paper we have lying in the car - be sure it won't be to scale and will lack lots of features. Afterall, we're not "experts", what would WE do with all that detail?

Do you think they all start from scratch everytime they dive a cave thats been dove before? That's silly!

I guess I'm silly. I don't have maps for half the places I dive. I guess maybe I should stick to diving only caves with publicly available maps, including not diving areas in some of the most popular systems that aren't on the available maps.

Your way of thinking is limiting you to an extremely small portion of cave out there. Maybe thats for the best.

Maps are usefull, don't get me wrong. They aren't the end all be all of a plan, everything should be verified by actual diving. If you plan your dive squarely on a map, you're basically doing a trust me dive.

 

[Cave Bum]

I guess I'm silly. I don't have maps for half the places I dive. I guess maybe I should stick to diving only caves with publicly available maps, including not diving areas in some of the most popular systems that aren't on the available maps.

Your way of thinking is limiting you to an extremely small portion of cave out there. Maybe thats for the best.

Maps are usefull, don't get me wrong. They aren't the end all be all of a plan, everything should be verified by actual diving. If you plan your dive squarely on a map, you're basically doing a trust me dive.

I don't think I remember another argument so twisted to fit a straw man someone wanted to shoot at!

The OP asked about Berman's map #2. I recommended Jeff's map instead. Others commented that divers shouldn't use a map, they should learn the cave by progressive penetration. I said use of a map was okay. We have always been talking about Ginnie Springs.

When did I ever say I don't dive a system I don't have a map for? I said if a map is available, it's silly to reinvent the wheel.

If you going to disagree with someone, at least disagree with something they actually said.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

My guess is you've never seen Jeff's map.

It is extremely accurate in depth, restrictions and scale; and it includes the entire system on one sheet...

Hancock can't fit everywhere in the system...

I really like my Berman map. Cheap, and gives me a general idea of where things might be. Leaves it up to me to figure out how to get there and to learn the cave because everyone knows, the cave and the Berman map don't always match up!

 

[Cave Bum]

Hancock can't fit everywhere in the system...

I really like my Berman map. Cheap, and gives me a general idea of where things might be. Leaves it up to me to figure out how to get there and to learn the cave because everyone knows, the cave and the Berman map don't always match up!

Too true! That was Marious' observation went he first found, explored and mapped the new section. But of course he said the same about me too when I asked about the connection he found from the Harper Tunnel to the Florida Room. He's probably right about that one, I wouldn't fit... Oh well...

Your point is very valid about Berman's map, at least map #1. Personally, I wouldn't spend the money on Berman's map #2, I just don't think it shows very much. You could probably sketch your own if you've been back there, but that's just my opinion.

Berman's map does make you explore on your own. It took me 3 dives to find the Whale Bone using the location on his map...

 

[JahJahwarrior]

I think what upsets me most about map 2 is how the style is so different, and how the cave and the river don't match up between the two... I've got them hung on the wall so the cave matches up, but the river on map 2 is a good 6 inches lower than the river on map 1.

I will admit, I got pretty confused about exactly which tunnel I was in, in the expressway tunnels, until I looked at Hancock's map and clearly saw how Berman's map was just a little bit off. Being able to see the line placement on the map and to compare it to the line placement I'd seen in real life made it all click. But, that's a reverse process: going and seeing the cave, then looking at the map to more fully understand it.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

The OP asked about Berman's map #2. I recommended Jeff's map instead. Others commented that divers shouldn't use a map, they should learn the cave by progressive penetration. I said use of a map was okay. We have always been talking about Ginnie Springs.

When did I ever say I don't dive a system I don't have a map for? I said if a map is available, it's silly to reinvent the wheel.

If you going to disagree with someone, at least disagree with something they actually said.

I'm pretty sure the below comment wasn't made about Ginnie, its a blanket comment.

Look at the experts... the first thing they'll do when you ask them about a cave or go to dive a cave with them is pull out a looseleaf notebook with zerox copies of handdrawn maps from everyone they could wheedle a copy from. Do you think they all start from scratch everytime they dive a cave thats been dove before? That's silly!(Note: If they have dived the cave and familiarized themselves with it, they are never starting from scratch - SBM

I said not all maps are accurate and detailed regarding the bold, red print above.

You bring up a single map, Jeff's. My comment wasn't about the Hancock map, its about crap, zerox copy maps.

My guess is you've never seen Jeff's map.

It is extremely accurate in depth, restrictions and scale; and it includes the entire system on one sheet...

But the biggest difference I see is that it has all the guidelines drawn in on it. I haven't seen that on other cave maps.(I just have to note that this comment makes it seem as you haven't looked at many maps at all. Line placement is fairly common on lots of the popular system maps - SBM) It lets you more accurately plan the dive and to know where you're going to be putting in jump reels.

So I guess you're bouncing back to the Ginnie System from your earlier blanket comment.

Looseleaf notebook, zerox copies of hand drawn maps(these are your descriptions, not mine) are not the equivelant of the Hancock map. I disagree with planning a dive, especially on these types of maps, because they are often innaccurate and not detailed enough.

Honestly, planning a dive from a map of any quality is trusting too much into something that you have no control over. Verify locations and landmarks by diving the areas, not because some map told you it was there. Things change in these caves WAY too often.

If you going to disagree with someone, at least disagree with something they actually said.

Don't have such a short memory, your words are quoted throughout.

I said if a map is available, it's silly to reinvent the wheel.

I consider "the wheel" familiarizing yourself with the cave by actually diving it. I consider maps a way to track your progress, if available, or at most trainingwheels.

 

[Cave Bum]

Anybody else notice how many trolls there are on this board?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll