Ginnie Springs Map

[contender]

I'm not doing it because I think it will make me more "qualified" to scooter. I am doing it because I think it is a good goal to set in my cave diving future. I think that knowing that you are capable of going that far into a cave and feeling comfortable doing it, you will feel like a more comfortable diver overall.

Kosap,
I see some faulty thinking in this statement. Swimming 3100 feet into the cave is very easy when nothing goes wrong, it's those "oh ****" moments that lay the foundation of your comfortability. Think about it this way, you are 60 minutes from natural air by swimming, nothing goes wrong and it's an easy drift out; now you are the same 60 minutes away and you have a reg failure, it's what you do in this situation that can later add a layer to your comfort in a cave. DO NOT set and equate distances with comfort in the cave. If you want to build your comfort, start jumping off that mainline and get into some siltouts and other situations that require you to use everything that you learn in PROPER TRAINING, this I can promise you will build comfort and character.
Safe Diving.

 

[Cave Bum]

So I know that something like the Henkel is just another rock with a hole in it but in my mind it is a goal that I can work up to and meet. And once I get there I will do other, shorter penetration, dives that will make me realize how far I have come in my cave education.

Actually, it's a horizontal bedding plane...

 

[Cave Bum]

They do? I have never heard a cave instructor make this statement.

Jeff Hancock has given me several maps to hold, for sale. If you'd like one of Jeff's maps PM me. They are $130 + shipping.

Jim,

I didn't know you were selling them too, or I would have given him your email. OP, I'd suggest getting it from Jim

Bruce

 

[Cave Bum]

You will know you have made progress when you decide to not use maps and instead learn a cave by diving it.

I believe your mistaken... (well I know it for a fact, but anyway...)

Look at the experts... the first thing they'll do when you ask them about a cave or go to dive a cave with them is pull out a looseleaf notebook with zerox copies of handdrawn maps from everyone they could wheedle a copy from. Do you think they all start from scratch everytime they dive a cave thats been dove before? That's silly!

Use a map. This is recreation, like hiking a trail. A map is one more tool to make you safe in the cave, use it!

Be safe and have fun in the water! Bruce
(Using Jeff Hancock's map and loving it!)

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Maps can be inaccurate and incomplete, the best way to learn the cave is to dive it.

Its very difficult to get good maps for most caves anyway.

 

[ianr33]

Hmmm, So I can actually find this heinkle you all speak of on a map, is it worth swimming to? 3100' seems like an eternity away from breathable air.

Could be all of eternity

 

[contender]

Could be all of eternity

Unfortunately, I thought it was one time.

 

[Tegg]

I believe your mistaken... (well I know it for a fact, but anyway...)

Look at the experts... the first thing they'll do when you ask them about a cave or go to dive a cave with them is pull out a looseleaf notebook with zerox copies of handdrawn maps from everyone they could wheedle a copy from. Do you think they all start from scratch everytime they dive a cave thats been dove before? That's silly!

Use a map. This is recreation, like hiking a trail. A map is one more tool to make you safe in the cave, use it!

Be safe and have fun in the water! Bruce
(Using Jeff Hancock's map and loving it!)

Most looseleaf notebook page maps are as accurate as me drawing a stick figure to describe a woman's body.

I am not saying one should not use maps. Exploring a cave is a task unrelated to the OP topic. He is asking about going to a specific place in a well "dove" cave. He is not looking to lay line, he is looking to follow one. Thus, he should learn the cave progressively since that will be a skill that assists him with future cave dives, would it not?

When one explores a cave they use maps as a way to know where to "start", since the goal is to lay line in a cave no one has seen yet. Thus it only makes sense to collect all possible data on a site and what areas of possible passage has already been "looked at". Again, completely different then what this guy is trying to accomplish.

As one progresses in their skills, a map can be a useful tool. It can also be a crutch that can get people places that they are not ready to see...

Of course my post is merely an opinion and by no means gospel.

 

[Cave Bum]

I am not saying one should not use maps. Exploring a cave is a task unrelated to the OP topic. He is asking about going to a specific place in a well "dove" cave. He is not looking to lay line, he is looking to follow one. Thus, he should learn the cave progressively since that will be a skill that assists him with future cave dives, would it not?

I wasn't talking about exploring a cave. I was saying when someone is guiding divers in a cave or explaining to other divers some feature of the cave they want to find, they use a map. The first thing I do, if I'm guiding a dive in Ginnie, is pull out Jeff's map and brief the dive, showing where I'm going to put in reels and items of interest to look for. It's an excellent tool. It lets the divers visualize the dive prior to going on it.

Using a map doesn't, in any way, stop divers from learning the cave by progressive penetration.

As one progresses in their skills, a map can be a useful tool. It can also be a crutch that can get people places that they are not ready to see...

My initial thought would be if they don't have the skill to know where their limits are, they haven't been properly trained.

I would have said that if I hadn't also seen in this thread that the OP isn't cave trained yet and is already asking about the Henkel. That is an entirely separate discussion.

The reason I let my posts stand is I assume others, who are cave certified, will read this and my comments on Jeff's map are directed at them. It's an excellent tool and of far better accuracy then any other cave map I've seen.

Of course my post is merely an opinion and by no means gospel.

Well, yes, as are my comments. I believe cave maps are useful tools, should be used and I use them when I teach. All the instructors I know use them when they teach.

But then again that's my opinion, not gospel...

 

[ucfdiver]

Using a map doesn't, in any way, stop divers from learning the cave by progressive penetration.

I don't think a map prevents it, but it certainly enables a diver to get much further into the system than if they were looking for passages on their own. A map combined with such a well lined and marked cave like Ginnie makes it where a diver can find almost anything their first dive in the system. Give a map as accurate as Jeff's to someone who's been reading up online, and the temptation to start swimming to places that they'd never find on their own is pretty strong.

I'm guessing that's what Tegg was trying to say....shrug.