Gilboa Again!!?

[netmage]

wetman once bubbled...
Arent free flows taught in class down there? Or is it free flows and other conditions that end up being the issue there?

steve

I just completed my OW & AOW through NAUI and there was no portion touching on free-flow skills. Seeing as how I live in Chicago, i.e. Lake Michigan and Midwest Quarry diving I feel somewhat cheated.

I've read a few of the post on the board here, but I'd prefer to run through the scenerio with an instructor before having to depend my life on it.

Speaking of which - nitrogen narcosis. I did my deep dive this morning for AOW. We went down to 79ft - didn't feel a thing.

Makes me think of contacting Mr. Ferrara for the next time he goes to Gilboa with an Advanced class. Cuz the next time they will have an opportunity for something deeper is a trip to Mermet Springs.

 

[chrpai]

I don't know about NAUI but PADI teaches freeflow (positive pressure brething) as well. Just gum your regulator with your lips allowing the exceess air to escape. Then sip the air.

For a single tank I would signal problem to buddy and begin ascent. There should be plenty of air in there but in case you run out or want / need to do a safety stop switch to your buddies alternate if you need to.

For guys diving doubles they practice valve drills for isolating the bad reg and save the air for the good reg.

DIR teaches a valve drill for single tank divers also but I don't see the value in it.

http://www.baue.org/faq/valve_drills.html

 

[MikeFerrara]

The guy this weekend was not a heart attack. I was told (by someone who knows) the guy this weekend was an advanced student. The were at 80 ft. The student lost a fin, sunk to 110, had a free flow and panicked. He was wearing a pony bottle but when they tried to get him to use it he rejected it and fought for the surface. He came up unconsious. The injured diver underwent treatment in a recompression chamber so I guess he lived but I don't know anything else about his condition. EMS was there last weekend also but I haven't heard anything about the incedent.

IMO, the big problem is these divers are taking advanced classes and doing deep dives BEFORE they learn to do a shallow dive. The fatality last year was also an advanced student.

BTW, I also heard that Mike had a good long talk with the instructors of this group. They decided to go ahead with their original plan anyway. You can lead a horse to water but...

It's one thing to have to hold a divers hand but how do you control instructors who are supposed to be the pros.

While loosing a fin or having a free flow isn't any fun it can't hurt you unless you don't have the basics down. IMO, a stupid pony bottle will never be the answer. The answer is learning one thing well before going on to the next.

I tought a private nitrox class yesterday at Gilboa. My student has dived warm water only. She was NAUI and had never practiced dealing with a free flow or a stuck BC inflator (which is the most common equipment failure by far that I have seen. We started the class vy practicing a stuck inflator at the surface. Next we dropped down to the las stair of the instructor dock and practiced hovering while breathing a free flow. The performed a nice descent (controled with buddies staying together) to just above the platform (right in front of the dock) and did airsharing drills and mask clearing while neutral. We didn't even have any plans to go deep. Had the diver been unable to do these skills I wouldn't have dived with her until she spent some time in the pool. None of those skills are requirements of the nitrox class but they are requirements to go diving.

If I had a class of six it would have taken a while to get through all that. Might be tempting to skip it.

 

[Big-t-2538]

I still don't understand why "instructors" HAVE to take their students over the deep side of the wall.

Why not follow the line out to the tubes, and keep going. There is a bottom there that is NOT 110ft. It makes no sense to take divers over to the deep side of the quarry that are 1, not prepared, 2, not equipped, and 3, haven't filled out a profile.


Why? Someone please tell me why?

 

[ericfine50]

I think one of the problems we are seeing is stores/instructors running people from OW to AOW, sometimes within a week or two of eac other. When I did my SSI OW, the Advanced was a total of 21 dives - so it took an entire season for me complete the 4 "specalities". They weren't the best classes taught, but I didn't know that at the time being a newbie. A second problem I see is instructors using Quarries because they are "safe", it is a confined body of water, no boat, no current, no wave action. I think some people take it for granted.

Just ranting, will be quite again.
Eric

 

[Big-t-2538]

ericfine50 once bubbled...
A second problem I see is instructors using Quarries because they are "safe"

Eric - I'm not ranting at you here, I'm going to make a point.

Gilboa is not "safe" if you are not a diver. it is deep, it is cold, and there is plenty of stuff to get caught up in.

That quarry doesn't "play"....you hump the dog there, and you're going to pay for it. Gilboa amplify's your mistakes, as we have all seen.

 

[diverbrian]

Big-T! You are right. Anyone who classifies that quarry as "safe" is new or taking something that is not allowed in diving. The shallow end is safe enough and I have still had my dive buddy get his tank valve caught in the line run by the water tower. (He could have cut his way out of it in a pinch, but that is why we dive with buddies, right?)

The deep side is used for entry level tech training for a REASON. It is extremely cold, dark, and it is still 110-135 ft. depending on the location. Anyone who disreprects these conditions is begging to pay for it. The lack of visual references in the deep end make it very easy to get narced. I have spoken to several experienced deep wreck divers and they have informed that they have never been narc'ed severely as they have at Gilboa (at least for that depth). I have stated in a couple of posts the precautions that I take to dive on that side. I have been narced in that moonscape of a bottom a couple of times myself and could barely think.

But, I don't know the facts. If Mike talked with the instructors before this class, I would figure that the class filed a deep dive plan. Going out from the tubes would still be deeper than is needed to freeze a reg. open. If Mike F.'s report is correct, than the students were simply not skilled enough to be deep diving yet. The loss of a fin does not take one down to 110 ft all by itself. Regulators can freeze at any point in there even though Mike W. has a certain depth posted. People get nervous, breathe too hard, and overbreathe the reg. The water is already cold and BAM, freeflow. Let's get more info on the actual incident. But let's get it through diver's heads to be prepared if they are going to go over there.

That means:

Having skills squared away

Being properly equipped

Being hydrated and in good condition

This is still a deep dive. Divers need to treat it as such.

 

[O-ring]

Just how cold is Gilboa at depth? Seems there are freeflows up there all the time...is this largely a factor of extreme temperature or people using gear not designed to be used in cold water?

 

[ericfine50]

I agree that Quarries are not a "safe" dive. I think some divers and instructors have that false sense of security. Dutch Springs in PA usually has at least one accident a season. They are good training sites, but if you are goning deep, you need to be able to dive shallow first.


Eric

 

[Big-t-2538]

O-ring once bubbled...
Just how cold is Gilboa at depth? Seems there are freeflows up there all the time...is this largely a factor of extreme temperature or people using gear not designed to be used in cold water?

2 weekends ago at the tubes (60 ft, shallow side) it was 44 degrees.

At the surface, it was 62ish...at about 20 feet it was 58ish....at 40 feet it was low 50's

On the deep side, it remains about 40deg at depth year-round (I don't have first hand knowledge of that, but it seeems to be the consensus from the people I talk to)

The deep side is usually a little colder than the shallow, so I'm guessing at the platform on the deep side at 80' it is like 40 to 42.