General Vortex Incident Discussion

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Uncle Ricky- Crimes committed at Vortex by Mr. Ben
Jury-rigging is also known as Destruction of property.. doesn't matter if it is accidental or intentional.
Going beyond the gate where there is a sign that says Stop is trespassing.
Leaving the stage tanks on the ground is Littering.
The first two are punishable, in the State of Virginia, by a max of 12 months in jail and/or a 1000.00 $ fine.
Littering is a max of 1000.00$ fine also.
Sound far fetched? Nah..... not really, it's up to the prosecuting attorney as to what and how many charges apply and how much work s/he wants to put into making a case against that person.

Big Ken, I and hopefully a lot of other people agree with you, those services that have been provided of the last couple months are costing the State of Fla. and the county which Vortex Springs sits in alot of money. That is taxpayers money!!
Vortex Springs is also suffered a lose from this incident.
Those expert cave divers that were in the cave had to travel, be lodged and fed. Who paid for that?
The S&R people had to travel, be lodged and fed.
Yes, a civil suit should follow if and when Ben emerges from somewhere other than from the interior of the cave.

I've been reading about this incident since it first started and I have to say that I was having doubts after the second week as to weither or not Ben was still in the cave. I personally believe that this was a well thought out and very well planned incident by an intelligent person that is escaping something in his life.
In today's world of computer and fraudlent documents he could have very easily "created" another idenity for himself and obtained credit cards, ATM card, personal I.D. and even a drivers license. Many an undocumented citizen have such documents. Ben, being an intelligent person, would also have been able to obtain a birth certificate that belongs to a person that died about the same time in the state which Ben was born. Using this birth cert. he wouldn't have to seek out the fraudulent document maker and obtained the real things from the various government agencies in his home state.
By using either of the above unproperly obtained docs. he would be guilty of several other crimes.

We live in a throw away world now days and it sounds to me, from what I've read, that Ben might have chose to throw away the life he has so that he can sit back somewhere else and enjoy a fantasy life which he may one day have to throw away and come back to the real world and face what ever he might be escaping from at the moment. I only hope that he decides to do right thing and return home to his family and admit his wrong doing and apoloygize for his behavior and face the "music" like a man, that is if he isn't somewhere in that cave.
My heart goes out to the family, they are enduring a lot of stress and uncertainy and they need closure and/or questions answered.

As to weither or not he is in the cave or off in Cancun, we may never know but my money is on Cancun.

Thank you for letting me put in my 2 psi.
Tim
 
... once a class is done, the instructor is not responsible for the poor decisions of the diver.

I've been gone and was catching up. I hadn't planned on commenting on anything until I was up to speed. ... But I could not restrain myself.

An instructor is responsible for teaching a diver about how to make good decisions relative to diving and the consequences of bad ones. Only if the instructor does so is the instructor then not responsible for poor decisions of the diver.
 
If this is a hoax (likely), my impression is that he is too immature to remain quiet for long. He is probably still in the U.S. (international flights are expensive and document intensive), and following this thread.

It may be a reasonable prediction that Ben will show up with 'amnesia' or 'mental conditions', and then appear on Oprah to apologize with the obligatory Oprah tears.... after he signs a book deal.
 
Crimes committed at Vortex by Mr. Ben Jury-rigging is also known as Destruction of property.. doesn't matter if it is accidental or intentional.

Intent IS an element, but more importantly, unless someone actually witnessed him damaging the gate, there is no way to convict him.

Going beyond the gate where there is a sign that says Stop is trespassing.

I don't think anyone owns the cave itself. If it was owned, then only the owner could sign a complaint against the trespasser, without a witness seeing him past the gate, you also wouldn't be able to get a conviction.

Leaving the stage tanks on the ground is Littering.

You might have a better shot at that, but again, someone has to see it happen for you to get a conviction, or really even get an arrest warrant.

Sound far fetched? Nah..... not really, it's up to the prosecuting attorney as to what and how many charges apply and how much work s/he wants to put into making a case against that person.

In most cases, misdemeanors must be witnessed by the person making a complaint. For felonies, and a handful of other criminal offenses like domestic violence crimes, you must have probable cause to obtain an arrest warrant.

I've been reading about this incident since it first started and I have to say that I was having doubts after the second week as to weither or not Ben was still in the cave. I personally believe that this was a well thought out and very well planned incident by an intelligent person that is escaping something in his life.
In today's world of computer and fraudlent documents he could have very easily "created" another idenity for himself and obtained credit cards, ATM card, personal I.D. and even a drivers license. Many an undocumented citizen have such documents. Ben, being an intelligent person, would also have been able to obtain a birth certificate that belongs to a person that died about the same time in the state which Ben was born. Using this birth cert. he wouldn't have to seek out the fraudulent document maker and obtained the real things from the various government agencies in his home state.
By using either of the above unproperly obtained docs. he would be guilty of several other crimes.

We live in a throw away world now days and it sounds to me, from what I've read, that Ben might have chose to throw away the life he has so that he can sit back somewhere else and enjoy a fantasy life which he may one day have to throw away and come back to the real world and face what ever he might be escaping from at the moment. I only hope that he decides to do right thing and return home to his family and admit his wrong doing and apoloygize for his behavior and face the "music" like a man, that is if he isn't somewhere in that cave.
My heart goes out to the family, they are enduring a lot of stress and uncertainy and they need closure and/or questions answered.

As to weither or not he is in the cave or off in Cancun, we may never know but my money is on Cancun.

A fake driver's license doesn't get you on an international flight these days, much less keep a roof over your head or put food on the table. If Ben was too lazy to take a cavern course, how is he going to support himself on the run? It's not like he can ask his parents to send him a couple of grand. The only two options I can see is that he had money squirreled away, or an accomplice willing to pay his bills. What's the point of staging a disappearance if you have a person willing to pay all of your bills?

Without parental support, or a strong desire to work a job that doesn't require any vetting of credentials, I can only give the "disappearing-act" so much credit.

I still say it's even money on the cave.
 
I've been gone and was catching up. I hadn't planned on commenting on anything until I was up to speed. ... But I could not restrain myself.

An instructor is responsible for teaching a diver about how to make good decisions relative to diving and the consequences of bad ones. Only if the instructor does so is the instructor then not responsible for poor decisions of the diver.

He supposedly was certified at age 14, had 500 dives, had taken a number of courses and was working on his Dive-Con cert. He had plenty of different Instructors since 1996 who informed him of the importance of good decision making. The Dive Con course alone involves repeated reinforcement of the consequences of poor decision making.
 
I was wondering if any one knows how big is the opening on the last restriction?, because the photo I have seen of Ben it shows that he was not a small fellow.
 

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That's what I've been thinking about too... There is this new member, who's only posted in this thread and who's location is "somewhere deep"...



Makes you wonder...

:wink:

Stupid beyond belief but all of you can have fun with that braniac thought.
 
I was wondering if any one knows how big is the opening on the last restriction?, because the photo I have seen of Ben it shows that he was not a small fellow.

Smaller than his helmet or either of his tanks.

Stupid beyond belief but all of you can have fun with that braniac thought.

I was under the impression that several friends/family members signed up so that they could learn more about the what, why and how of this incident. They were warned multiple times that things would get ugly. Some stuck around. Hopefully the ones who did were able to separate the wheat from the chaff and walk away with something valuable.

If that's the case, I also hope that they would impress upon the parents that offering money for divers to go into areas where even expert cavers refuse to go (even for money) would only increase the chances that some other family will have to suffer the same anguish of losing a loved one. How will they feel if someone dies looking for the empty shell that once housed their son? Is putting Ben in a concrete box in some commercial cemetery worth the life of another person's son or daughter? Isn't the cave a more fitting tomb for someone that loved diving and adventure?
 
It may be a reasonable prediction that Ben will show up with 'amnesia' or 'mental conditions', and then appear on Oprah to apologize with the obligatory Oprah tears.... after he signs a book deal.


Oprah? more likely Jerry Springer.....


I don't think anyone owns the cave itself. If it was owned, then only the owner could sign a complaint against the trespasser, without a witness seeing him past the gate, you also wouldn't be able to get a conviction.

In Florida and most states, the person who owns the land directly above the cave is the person who owns the cave.

In this case, Dockery owns the land above the "opening" of the cave.

Whether or not he owns the land above the entire run of the cave I don't know. But he who owns the opening of the cave, controls access and essentially controls the cave.
 
I was wondering if any one knows how big is the opening on the last restriction?, because the photo I have seen of Ben it shows that he was not a small fellow.
83248d1286127518-general-vortex-incident-discussion-ben-mcdaniels.jpg

There's been talk of it being 4" to 7". (but like most of us, I've not been back there).

Interesting picture you attached.... Particularly that brass fitting. :popcorn: (I think all the cool kid cave divers are using those now.....)



(here it is blown up..... Yoke Reg and brass DIN/Yoke adapter fitting typically used for fills. :popcorn:)

Ben-mcdaniel-regulator.jpg
 
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