LiteHedded
Contributor
who gives a **** if he was stealing air?
General Vortex Incident Discussion
- Thread starter Cave Diver
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SuPrBuGmAn
Contributor
The log book isn't proof of anything. Its easy to falsify a logbook.
There's no proof on these boards, or anywhere else that I've seen... of anything. Atleast short of an untrained diver, who was caught on video, in a cave environment.
Is there proof? LOL Ya know, devils advocate and all
Why would it?
irishsquid
Contributor
Considering the way he mis-represented his training & skills to family and friends, anything in his logbook would be questionable also IMO.
Kevin Carlisle
Contributor
Aloha, what are you hoping to find out from his log book. There is nothing there, surely can't backup his claims of being an experienced technical diver. Edd and I were given information after 15 days of investigation that is deemed confidential. I will not speak of it and forgot most of it since then. It was about as meaningful as what you have here on the board. Ben deserves all the discredit in the world for putting his family through this and spending a hell of a lot of taxpayers dollars. His log book was crap, there was evidence he tampered with the permanent grate as well as the gate. That is destruction of private property. Not exactly the actions of upstanding people. There isn't anything left to stir in this pot, either he is there and someone will get a surprise one day or he will get caught elsewhere. As Mat said, we do know where he didn't go, even I the Sheriff can't seem to grasp that.
So what you're saying is anyone who met or spoke with him should have known he was mentally off...that he couldn't have put on enough of a show to convince people that he was willing to learn and that he wouldn't/couldn't have reeled it in during a class... And checking a log book means nothing. The news reports say he had over 500 dives. He might have had 50 dives and just filled in his log book with 451 other dives that he never actually did. If he claimed most of his dives were solo, there's no way to prove it either way.
Okay, I'll rephrase that...I know a few GUE trained divers that are smokers. And I also know of GUE trained divers on the Wakulla project that smoked...at Ed Ball State Park...during projects...
So I guess the WKPP does allow non-DIR divers to dive with them...
diverdoug1
Contributor
Okay, I'll rephrase that...I know a few GUE trained divers that are smokers. And I also know of GUE trained divers on the Wakulla project that smoked...at Ed Ball State Park...during projects...
So I guess the WKPP does allow non-DIR divers to dive with them...
In a pre-op assessment, we do not consider a patient a non-smoker until they have been tobacco free for at least 10 years. There is at least one poster in this thread who classifies themselves as a DIR diver, who says smokers are not DIR, and has smoked a cigar (by their own admission on this board) within this time period. So what? I guess it goes back to some of the issues we have been discussing in this thread. Personal choice and freedom vs. following the suggestions of training agencies. If you follow the rules and the letter of the "law" you don't go in an overhead without propper training, but before you get too preachy, you can't really call yourself "DIR diver" if you admit to smoking the rare cigar either (if you follow the letter of the law). I guess it is a hard line to draw between the rules that most seem to agree with, and the rules that are pretty much BS. I personally don't feel we need the "scuba police" and let natural selection take it's course. We all have our personal level of risk aversion, my only problem is with those who screw up and die in a manner that threatens how the rest of us want to do things. If you want to call yourself a DIR diver and smoke a cigar every couple of years, who is that going to hurt (other than yourself)? Die in a cave, and it might shut down that cave for the rest of us. I think that preserving individual freedoms is more important than assuring the safety of all individuals.
mike_s
Contributor
getting back on topic..... 
Looks like in this article published yesterday, that the family is looking for divers to pay to go back the "restriction".
I Understand the family "needs closure", but could just result in someone going into a "death zone".
According to the quote by the Holmes County Sheriff Department Captain, he looks like he's implying that "Ben is in there" as being one of the only two people to have made it past the restriction. When it's been stated that there is no evidence (scrape marks, clay color changes, etc) to indicate he pushed through there.. .... go figure.
I feel for the anguish the family is going through and I guess if my son was in there that I'd want resolution also. But can't see having someone else die for it though.
Here's the article.
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/oct/01/diver-loved-adventure-to-the-end/
Collierville scuba diver loved adventure — to the end
Family mourns son lost in underwater cave
* By Cindy Wolff
* Memphis Commercial Appeal
* Posted October 1, 2010 at midnight
He was fearless and loved the water.
Ben McDaniel was scuba diving Aug. 18 in a challenging cave called Vortex Spring in Ponce de Leon, Fla. He wiggled through an opening in the back of the cave so restrictive that most seasoned divers won't attempt to go through.
That space is his tomb.
Collierville residents Shelly and Patty McDaniel knew the second they heard their son was missing, two days after he went into the cave, there would be no rescue. It was a recovery mission.
Sixteen experienced divers from the eastern United States spent 36 days in and out of the 150-foot deep cave looking for McDaniel. But none wanted to go through the last opening so narrow a diver has to take off his tank and push it through before he goes in, said Capt. Harry Hamilton of the Holmes County Sheriff's Office.
"To my knowledge the only ones who have ever gone to that part of the cave is one person on an exploration team that found it and Ben McDaniel," Hamilton said.
The exploration diver made it out.
There were 368 diving deaths in caves from 1969-2007, according to a 2009 article in the International Journal of Aquatic Research and Education.
Six died over the years at Vortex Spring. All but McDaniel were recovered, said Hamilton who coordinated the search.
"I'm frustrated," he said. "The search hasn't officially been called off. We are considering other options."
A high-tech underwater camera was used. Cadaver dogs indicated McDaniel's body was there.
The family hopes to find a diver willing to go in and bring out their 30-year-old son. They will pay if someone will go.
"It's for closure," said his father. "We want Ben home."
McDaniel was a blue-eyed, brown-headed boy, the oldest of three sons, who spent his life seeking adventure and the water, said his mother.
He learned to scuba dive at age 14. He earned certifications through the years and became an expert diver. He had about 500 deep dives recorded.
He graduated from Christian Brothers High School and the University of Memphis. He was married for about a year, then divorced. He loved a chocolate Labrador retriever named Spooner.
McDaniel was devastated when his youngest brother Paul died from a stroke in 2008 at age 22.
McDaniel took a year off from his construction business to scuba dive. His sabbatical started in the spring.
"He needed time," said his mother. "He read his Bible. He kept a journal of scriptures and he scuba dived. Paul's death had a huge impact on him. He just needed to get away."
A couple of antique suitcases wrapped in roses will be on a table at a memorial service Wednesday night. Visitors may place notes or mementos in them. One will be buried with Paul.
Their mother wrote her note Wednesday night.
She talks about how Ben is in heaven with Paul and how he had grown in his faith in God through the years.
"My precious, precious Ben: You know how much I love you. 'Bunches,'" his mother wrote. "There are no words to describe how my heart hurts. ... There are no goodbyes, only the love that we carry in our hearts for eternity. Mom."
Looks like in this article published yesterday, that the family is looking for divers to pay to go back the "restriction".
I Understand the family "needs closure", but could just result in someone going into a "death zone".According to the quote by the Holmes County Sheriff Department Captain, he looks like he's implying that "Ben is in there" as being one of the only two people to have made it past the restriction.
When it's been stated that there is no evidence (scrape marks, clay color changes, etc) to indicate he pushed through there.. .... go figure.I feel for the anguish the family is going through and I guess if my son was in there that I'd want resolution also. But can't see having someone else die for it though.
Here's the article.
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/oct/01/diver-loved-adventure-to-the-end/
Collierville scuba diver loved adventure — to the end
Family mourns son lost in underwater cave
* By Cindy Wolff
* Memphis Commercial Appeal
* Posted October 1, 2010 at midnight
He was fearless and loved the water.
Ben McDaniel was scuba diving Aug. 18 in a challenging cave called Vortex Spring in Ponce de Leon, Fla. He wiggled through an opening in the back of the cave so restrictive that most seasoned divers won't attempt to go through.
That space is his tomb.
Collierville residents Shelly and Patty McDaniel knew the second they heard their son was missing, two days after he went into the cave, there would be no rescue. It was a recovery mission.
Sixteen experienced divers from the eastern United States spent 36 days in and out of the 150-foot deep cave looking for McDaniel. But none wanted to go through the last opening so narrow a diver has to take off his tank and push it through before he goes in, said Capt. Harry Hamilton of the Holmes County Sheriff's Office.
"To my knowledge the only ones who have ever gone to that part of the cave is one person on an exploration team that found it and Ben McDaniel," Hamilton said.
The exploration diver made it out.
There were 368 diving deaths in caves from 1969-2007, according to a 2009 article in the International Journal of Aquatic Research and Education.
Six died over the years at Vortex Spring. All but McDaniel were recovered, said Hamilton who coordinated the search.
"I'm frustrated," he said. "The search hasn't officially been called off. We are considering other options."
A high-tech underwater camera was used. Cadaver dogs indicated McDaniel's body was there.
The family hopes to find a diver willing to go in and bring out their 30-year-old son. They will pay if someone will go.
"It's for closure," said his father. "We want Ben home."
McDaniel was a blue-eyed, brown-headed boy, the oldest of three sons, who spent his life seeking adventure and the water, said his mother.
He learned to scuba dive at age 14. He earned certifications through the years and became an expert diver. He had about 500 deep dives recorded.
He graduated from Christian Brothers High School and the University of Memphis. He was married for about a year, then divorced. He loved a chocolate Labrador retriever named Spooner.
McDaniel was devastated when his youngest brother Paul died from a stroke in 2008 at age 22.
McDaniel took a year off from his construction business to scuba dive. His sabbatical started in the spring.
"He needed time," said his mother. "He read his Bible. He kept a journal of scriptures and he scuba dived. Paul's death had a huge impact on him. He just needed to get away."
A couple of antique suitcases wrapped in roses will be on a table at a memorial service Wednesday night. Visitors may place notes or mementos in them. One will be buried with Paul.
Their mother wrote her note Wednesday night.
She talks about how Ben is in heaven with Paul and how he had grown in his faith in God through the years.
"My precious, precious Ben: You know how much I love you. 'Bunches,'" his mother wrote. "There are no words to describe how my heart hurts. ... There are no goodbyes, only the love that we carry in our hearts for eternity. Mom."
vshearer
Contributor
That is interesting in that I did not realize the end restriction in the tunnel was known to open up further in, I thought it just kept narrowing down. I assume over time it also has changed and possibly gotten even narrower due to shifting sand?
Wobbegong wannabe
Contributor
So, I read the first highlighted quote to mean that the Sheriff's Office firmly believes he is in there? Given what you've all been saying about the lack of evidence such as scratches etc., (in your opinions) do they have any particular evidence supporting that belief or is it more of a supposition and/or best guess?
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