General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Rick Murchison]

How much time would you recommend between the courses? I've heard of a few "Zero-to-Hero" courses . . .

I took intro two years after cavern, apprentice two years after intro and full nearly a year after apprentice. Right at 5 years from cavern to full cave. That made for a very comfortable transition
Rick

 

[netmage]

How much time would you recommend between the courses? I've heard of a few "Zero-to-Hero" courses . . .

Jax, I started w/ NAUI Cave 1... Already having a tech background my instructor did not require Cavern, which the standards allow w/ instructor discretion. I dove at that level for a year. By then, we were doing dives up to the limits of that training level no circuits, no jumps, no stages. Cave 1 is similar to Apprentice in that your allowed 2 navigational decisions and diving doubles to thirds.

Not liking the NAUI Cave 2 options - our team then took Apprentice and Full Cave thru an NACD instructor.

Fortunately - our Cave 1 instructor was local to us and likes to dive... So we got a years worth of mentoring for the low low price of being a buddy....

-Tim

 

[rjack321]

How much time would you recommend between the courses? I've heard of a few "Zero-to-Hero" courses . . .

GUE Cave1, then GUE Cave2 18months later after about 50 cave dives and 20 cavern for me.

GUE doesn't have a cavern course or an "apprentice" either. I don't think zero-to-hero should even be offered by any agency, instructor discretion or otherwise. The caves aren't going anywhere, even the most seasoned deco/wreck etc diver who <could> probably do zero-to-hero will be visiting again or capable of taking "part2" at some other time after doing some basic mainline dives.

The existance/option of zero-to-hero is misleading and creates a c-card "destination" which is totally artificial anyway.

 

[Jax]

Ooops . . . please don't take it that I would want something like a zero-to-hero! :shocked2:

 

[rjack321]

Ooops . . . please don't take it that I would want something like a zero-to-hero! :shocked2:

Nah just speaking in general terms about the value of putting out the zero to hero carrot. I think its not necessary and creates the perception that its "possible" or somehow something that the super A-list cool kids do.

Although the fellow who died in Vortex had no overhead training at all.

 

[InTheDrink]

Perhaps I can put things in perspective four you...

• This is a restricted forum. Only those who have demonstrated the right to be here are allowed. Family and friends will never see this line of discussion unless they qualify. By then, their skin will have thickened considerably and they would be able to handle the non-varnished opinions of these divers.
• The point of this forum is to discuss ALL of the angles that pertain to Cave Diving. There are no sacred cows, or off limit discussions here. The discussions can be frank even to the point of being blunt, so that we can get down to the real issues.

FWIW, saying that second guessing people's motivations was distasteful was incorrect. More that it's not terribly useful. Cos you can't easily know what their motivations were and by making judgements based on your 'guess' you risk making an incorrect conclusion.

Thanks, I'll duck out now.

J

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

How much time would you recommend between the courses? I've heard of a few "Zero-to-Hero" courses . . .

I tried the "zero-to-hero" route ... not because I was interested in short-cuts but because I live about as far from caves as someone can get and still be in this country ... and I figured with my background I could manage it.

I didn't.

Skills were there (mostly) ... mindset, not so much. And learning how to deal with flow was the hardest part. Open water diving ... and even wreck penetration ... doesn't really prepare you well for cave training. Made it through Apprentice level ... went back a few months later and got in a week's worth of diving at that level (even got a chance to dive with Phreatic Fanatic, Mark Vlahos, Baby Duck and DA Aquamaster) ... and went back a third time to finish up the Full Cave cert.

I think zero-to-hero can be done ... even well and safely ... a few of my friends managed it. But I think it's gonna be more the exception than the rule ... and only then by people who already have a pretty extensive skill set and some natural ability to adapt their skills to a cave environment.

The natural ability is what I lacked ... I always have to struggle to learn something new.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Jax]

Skills were there (mostly) ... mindset, not so much. And learning how to deal with flow was the hardest part. Open water diving ... and even wreck penetration ... doesn't really prepare you well for cave training.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Did you find the the cave training made you a better Wreck diver?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Did you find the the cave training made you a better Wreck diver?

Not really ... the things I struggled with most in the caves were flow and navigational decisions. Flow isn't something you'll experience inside a wreck ... and navigational decisions are completely different when you're laying the line as you go as opposed to managing jumps, T's, circuits, etc.

I think Rob's use of "situational awareness" is the most accurate description ... it's completely different in a cave than in a wreck.

Also ... at least when I go inside a wreck ... I take my deco bottles with me, in case I have to come out somewhere other than where I went in. In a cave, that's not generally a contingency you have to plan for ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Phreatic Fanatic]

... and even wreck penetration ... doesn't really prepare you well for cave training. Made it through Apprentice level ... went back a few months later and got in a week's worth of diving at that level (even got a chance to dive with Phreatic Fanatic, Mark Vlahos, Baby Duck and DA Aquamaster) ... and went back a third time to finish up the Full Cave cert.

And vice versa; cave training doesn't prepare one to dive wrecks!