General advice to new scuba divers: do not waste your money!

[Searcaigh]

The parents don't teach their children how to change a spark plug in a lawn mower any more

That's because they have an electric lawnmower or live in an apartment!

 

[boulderjohn]

I get the parts availability argument, but are they really any better performing than a cheap set for recreational dives?

Recreational dives?

I had very high end regulators that I used for technical diving. I sold them about 11 years ago. I have used middle of the road regulators ever since. No problems diving in the 300 foot range.

 

[Still Kicking]

Nope. If I went in there not needing any advice on what I was going to buy, then I’d only blame myself. I didn’t ask the salesperson to show me a BC. I specifically asked about a particular BC, maybe 2, as I think I was inquiring about the Ranger vs. Stiletto. This wasn’t the only time they tried to steer me to ScubaPro when I asked about something completely different. It was, however, the last time. I had previously done some training with that shop, and had purchased gear from them in the past.

Instead, another shop got my business for my gear, and that of my daughters. The first shop couldn’t have known that I would end up being a good customer, but neither did the shop that got my business.

Did he explain why you might consider the Knighthawk vs. the Zeagle? Not wanting to sell an item you have in stock is just dumb and contrary to the retail model LOL.

When I worked a shop, I wouldn't stand in the way of a customer buying a particular product but I would ask a few questions about their type of diving and make sure they made an informed decision.

For example, if a customer came in to buy a BC I would ask if they knew about BPW and, if they weren't aware, I would take a couple of minutes to explain the concept and how they compared to a traditional BC. I would tell them I didn't necessarily think they should buy a BPW (BCs work just fine for many divers) but I didn't want them to hear about backplates in 3 months and say "well I wish I had known....."

 

[boulderjohn]

Here is some more generic advice about purchases from any source, including online.

A couple of years ago, I bought a new set of golf clubs. I mentioned that purchase in a social setting, and a woman was very interested. She asked seemingly knowledgeable questions about my purchase, which surprised me, since I knew she did not play golf. When I asked, she confirmed that she didn't have the foggiest idea how to play golf. She had never touched a golf club in her life. She just knew the names of brands and models. She had worked in the online division of a major sporting goods chain. They offered "Ask an Expert" advice for purchases. If you were torn between different brands and models, you could go to that service, where you would be connected to her. As a customer, you were seeking expert advice to guide your purchase; as the designated "expert," her explicit job was to talk you into making the most expensive purchase possible. She had a cheat sheet of phrases to explain why you should make that more expensive choice.

Decades ago, when home computing first took off, I went into a store specializing in computers to make a purchase. I had a middling knowledge of computing, but it was enough for me to be able to tell that I knew much more than every "expert" in the store.

So my generic advice is that if you need expert advice, get it from a neutral source long before you are ready to make the purchase, but even then, be wary of that "expert" advice.

 

[Belzelbub]

Did he explain why you might consider the Knighthawk vs. the Zeagle? Not wanting to sell an item you have in stock is just dumb and contrary to the retail model LOL.

It's been a while, but I don't believe so. I'll listen to valid reasons, but I didn't get anything other than "because ScubaPro." That's a brand, not a reason. At that point, it was clear to me that I wasn't buying from them, at least not that BC. I think I gave them a couple other chances after that, before just moving on. Disappointing as they are closer to me than the shop I use. But I don't have a problem driving a little further to deal with a shop that actually listens to their customers.

For example, if a customer came in to buy a BC I would ask if they knew about BPW and, if they weren't aware, I would take a couple of minutes to explain the concept and how they compared to a traditional BC. I would tell them I didn't necessarily think they should buy a BPW (BCs work just fine for many divers) but I didn't want them to hear about backplates in 3 months and say "well I wish I had known....."

That's reasonable and a good approach. I'd have no problem having a discussion about pros and cons, and considering something new.

 

[boulderjohn]

It's been a while, but I don't believe so. I'll listen to valid reasons, but I didn't get anything other than "because ScubaPro." That's a brand, not a reason.

I am hesitating to write this, since I personally would not direct you to either BCD given infinite choices, but if I had to choose between the two, I would have a definite reason for preferring the Nighthawk. My point in making this post is that it is possible that if a salesperson pushed the Nighthawk for the same reason I would have, that reason might not have been important to a customer at the time, leading that customer to dismiss it and forget it. (Note the generic language--I am not speaking of any specific person.)

I have not seen either model for quite some time, so what I am about to say may not describe later models. I owned and used a Nighthawk for several years. I later worked in a dive shop that sold Zeagles, and I worked with students in advanced classes after they had purchased them. Here is the difference I would have pointed out if I had been advising a customer.

• Like pretty much all BCDs sold today, the Nighthawk had waist pockets located in front of the hips. It also had trim pockets located high in the back shoulder area. In my experience, if I put an equal amount of weight in all 4 pockets, that weight was beautifully distributed for trim. Staying in trim throughout a dive was effortless.
• The Zeagles also had waist pockets in the front of the hips. They had trim pockets in the back, but they were inexplicably at the same level as the front pockets--nowhere near the shoulders. The only reason I could see to put weight there was so the diver would be able to stay vertical with marginally more comfort while floating upright on the surface. It was possible to move them up in inch or two (with great effort, I might add), but it was not possible to put them in a position that would really help achieve proper trim. I was greatly frustrated with this while working with students on buoyancy and trim.

Speaking hypothetically, if a salesperson were to mention that to someone who didn't give a rat's ass about trim weights, it would not be a selling point, and the customer would likely not see it as worth mentioning.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

Hi everyone, considering that at the beginning of my “diving journey” I’ve made some mistakes in terms of “equipment choices”, wasting money and/or time, I wanted to share some general advices to all those fellow divers who are now facing the classical conundrum in terms of equipment choices. For most of you this is just good sense, but in my experience at the beginning it can be overwhelming considering the complexity of a proper scuba configuration.

• You often don’t know when you start diving what kind of diving are you going to do: we all start via the recreational way, and sometimes we end up in more tech courses over time. For this reason, when at the beginning of your journey you wanna buy new equipment bear in mind that “with a TEC equipment configuration you can do recreational diving, but its not true the other way around”: unless you are going toward the instructor route in the recreational world, think about buying equipment for a technical configuration even if you’ll be using it (at least at the beginning) to do recreational diving with your local diving center;
• Sometimes, your local diving is also a local dealers and since they have a real business to run and they bought equipment from one brand and not from another, they will tend to sell you what they have in stock and not necessarily it is the best equipment for your specific needs: before buying anything based on the advices of your local dealers (which are not necessarily bad advices) take a deeper look over the internet (scubaboard included) to see what other people buy and why;
• Drysuit: since it is probably the most expensive piece of gear you are going to buy, do your research and talk with all kind of divers (recreational, tech, salty or not salty water). A neoprene drysuit has definitely its own advantages (its warmer with less undergarments and consequently less expensive overall) and disadvantages (generally less mobility) but a trilaminate one will maybe serve you better over the long period: it can be used with a lot of different undergarments and it is ok for all different “schools”, including the stricter ones (GUE, UTD etc);
• BCD: if you go (and I strongly advice for it) toward the BP route, do not overthink about the brand because it is maybe the only piece of gear where it does not make such a big difference: an alluminium or steel backplate from the most trendy brand is basically the same as a cheaper one. Save money for your regulators;
• Regulators: do not save money here. If you have a budget, cut half of it to buy the best you can. It is better to have a mediocre drysuit/wetsuit and fins than a mediocre regulator: it does not matter what kind of diving you are doing;
• Computer: think about buying a multigas computer…by now you can find it at the same price of an air/nitrox computer (e.g. Garmin G1) but it will serve you over the long period;
• Multi use equipment: although 90% of your equipment will be for scuba only, you can still buy few pieces of your configuration that will serve you in other hobbies or everyday life: undergarments (a good pile is just a good pile, no matter if it is for mountain climbing or scuba) and computer (e.g. a multisport). It is good to buy specific tool for the specific job, but in a budget constrain environment and if you are at the beginning, postpone those expenditures once you know for sure that scuba will be your hobby for an extended period of time.

Idk man... you're trying to imply that a new diver knows what their destination will be... for a lot of us we're still on the journey. How do you know what you'll be diving in 3-5-10 years? I surely don't.

The stuff I'm diving today is way different than I thought I'd be diving. I remember thinking farmer john's were the **** and p valves were disgusting. 5 years in and that's all changed but I had to figure that out for myself.

I think the best advice is for someone to do as much research as they can. I want to know more about what I'm buying than the guy selling it... but that's not everybody. Some people just want something that works and that's ok too. It's all in where you are on the journey.. there's so many different types of divers it's not just a "one size fits all". Kudos for trying though.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I’ve owned a couple Mercedes over the years. Not top of the line, but well equipped. Pricing was more than a Kia, but not ridiculous. The reason it’s been more than one is due to what happened with the 1st Mercedes we owned.

I took it in to the dealer for a CEL. Car was well out of warranty at the time. Over the mileage by a good amount, and over a year out as well. It took the dealer a couple of tries to pinpoint the cause, but they finally settled on a harmonic balancer causing the issue. The problem was getting at it. In order to repair, the engine needed to come out. The dealer showed me the estimate. It was north of $10K to repair. Quite a bit for a car that was purchased for less than $40K. The cost to me for that repair turned out to be $0. Mercedes covered everything despite the warranty status.

To draw it back to the Scuba world, there are some companies that have a reputation of taking care of their customers, and there are others that have the opposite. I’ll gladly spend a little more to buy a product from the former.

One reason why Shearwater is such a strong following. Call it a cult, bunch of fan boys. I'm one/a member due to a number of things: best of class customer service with a long track record as such; great products that are so easy to use that don't require a manual to operate. That doesn't mean that there are not good alternatives. Ratio was a brand I was looking at years ago (2016 to be exact), but they never seemed to make a push into the US. So I went full Shearwater at that point.

Another company that has established itself in the short term is Deep 6. I remember a post here on SB where someone bought one of their regs, was the recipient of some FUD at the LDS. Chris gave a full refund because he wanted customers to be fully satisfied with their purchase and not have some doubt in their mind.

I've had good success stories with other companies but wasn't nearly as fast. Obviously Suunto is not on that list, so with the exception of compasses, I avoid that company's products.

You don't necessarily have to spend more.

 

[SlugLife]

I've changed my mind about my previous critiques. Everyone should spend a bunch of money on expensive dive-gear they might need 2 to 5 years from now. I mean, without other divers doing that, where would I get all of my barely used gear for a tiny fraction of the original price!?

 

[Celt]

You can't stop some people spending money and buying gear, salesmen love them, and others can do a lifetime of diving on very little gear.