gearing up for fundies

[PerroneFord]

That's a pretty good list. I do have a question though. Quite obviously, not that long ago the large Faber tanks were in favor. Do you still see these around? And I would imagine that the branding of the tanks wouldn't be too big a deal if the size was the same and the balance was decent.

 

[lamont]

From what I have seen these are the "DIR" tanks of choice:

AL 6 or 12 or 18? - Used for drysuit inflation
Luxifer AL40 - Used for deco gas
Luxifer AL80 - Used for deco gas, travel gas and stage gas. Also used for singles or doubles in wetsuits.
PST LP 104 or PST E8-130 - Used for most back gas applications in a dry suit.
PST LP 120 - Used to sandwich an RB80

Keeping the list small makes team gas plans a LOT easier since everyone has the same tanks. I wouldn't by a tank not on this list unless I had a very clear reason not to because they cover basically every application I can think of well.

There was just an 'interesting' thread on gavinscooters about tank choice.

If i'm not totally mistaken i think GI3 made some offhand comment about liking certain steel tanks as deco bottles, which personally i found to be the icing on the cake. There was a lot to choose from though.

I believe the moral of the story was to understand what the right tank was for the job and that tank then becomes a DIR tank.

 

[piikki]

From what I have seen these are the "DIR" tanks of choice:

AL 6 or 12 or 18? - Used for drysuit inflation
Luxifer AL40 - Used for deco gas
Luxifer AL80 - Used for deco gas, travel gas and stage gas. Also used for singles or doubles in wetsuits.
PST LP 104 or PST E8-130 - Used for most back gas applications in a dry suit.
PST LP 120 - Used to sandwich an RB80

Keeping the list small makes team gas plans a LOT easier since everyone has the same tanks. I wouldn't by a tank not on this list unless I had a very clear reason not to because they cover basically every application I can think of well.

Thanks for the list Jim. I am not sure if I am jumping into conclusions but how I understand this, one of the most important criteria is uniformity inside the team. How far does this reach re: other teams? Teams in different areas of the country/world? Teams in different environments?

Like if a DIR guy immigrated would it be easy to slip into another team without replacing most of the gear including tanks? One thing I had hoped to accomplish by choosing my tanks was to get them to Europe with me if desired (and avoid nervously waiting for renewal of exemptions, brr). I totally freaked out when I heard Americans could not get some of their US tanks filled even on trips to Canada (goodbye St Lawrence I thought – what tanks were these??) So, is DIR tank really brand related or mainly team related/consensus dictated (taking into account base premises about properties). If the latter then are your brand choices most common for cold water choices in the US/Canada?

 

[jonnythan]

I had the trouble with tanks.. I have some of the first-run PST E8 tanks. Transport Canada took their time issuing PST the exemption, and PST went ahead and released them only with DOT exemptions. Most places near the border have no problem filling them.

I see the LP104/E8-130 used most commonly in the DIR crowd, except when ocean diving (then you see a lot of Al80s).

 

[Doc Intrepid]

From what I have seen these are the "DIR" tanks of choice:

AL 6 or 12 or 18? - Used for drysuit inflation
Luxifer AL40 - Used for deco gas
Luxifer AL80 - Used for deco gas, travel gas and stage gas. Also used for singles or doubles in wetsuits.
PST LP 104 or PST E8-130 - Used for most back gas applications in a dry suit.
PST LP 120 - Used to sandwich an RB80

Keeping the list small makes team gas plans a LOT easier since everyone has the same tanks. I wouldn't by a tank not on this list unless I had a very clear reason not to because they cover basically every application I can think of well.

Coupla comments...

Argon tanks - if mounting on the left side of the bp, use the Luxfer 6 cu ft. How long these last will depend on many factors, incl. water temp, undergarment, how tight you dive your ds, etc. Hell, buy two, they're small. Two should see you through a weekend. If mounting on a set of doubles use a Luxfer low pressure (2014 psi) 14 cu ft bottle (its the same overall dimensions as a Luxfer 19). You can use a Luxfer 19 if you want to, but there is no real advantage if using argon: argon comes in low pressure T bottles. Unless you have your own booster pump, you'll never get a "full fill" of argon by simply transfilling it from a T to your argon tank - you'll likely be doing great to get a fill of 2014 psi.....

And in terms of Fabers, aside from the painted exteriors and rule 6 issues, check a matrix of empty tank weights. PST E8-130s weight considerably less, individually, than the Faber 95s - double them up and you're talking a significant weight increase if using Fabers.

FWIW...

 

[jonnythan]

And in terms of Fabers, aside from the painted exteriors and rule 6 issues, check a matrix of empty tank weights. PST E8-130s weight considerably less, individually, than the Faber 95s - double them up and you're talking a significant weight increase if using Fabers.

FWIW...

That would be cool if it were true

 

[JimC]

There was just an 'interesting' thread on gavinscooters about tank choice.

If i'm not totally mistaken i think GI3 made some offhand comment about liking certain steel tanks as deco bottles, which personally i found to be the icing on the cake. There was a lot to choose from though.

I believe the moral of the story was to understand what the right tank was for the job and that tank then becomes a DIR tank.

I read that as well... something about using buoyant steel tanks wet and something about a faber 95 he used for O2?

Ether way, the above list is a great starting point. While various teams may have some other setups I find that the listed tanks will be what to expect from a GUE trained diver in North America. So far I don't think I have dove with a GUE trained diver that doesn't own 104/130's.

As for Europe, they have there own regulations and brands. I don't believe that the DOT/TC tanks in the list would be an option in Europe. The tank neck threading is even different if I recall.



As for brands:

There are 2 companies making AL diving tanks, Luxfer and Catalina. Luxfers buoyancy characteristics are far better than Cat for stage use. Not sure if it would make much of a difference in argon tanks.

For steel there are only 2 players, with a 3rd just getting into the market. PST's hot dip galv and buoyancy seem to be preferred over faber. Worthingtons new cylinders look identical to PST, so should match well. I don't see any Fabers around on the GUE divers. They all, every one I know, use 104/130's.

 

[reubencahn]

I don't think turning up to fundies with a wetsuit and a single HP tank would be a bad thing. A single steel tank is not THAT much heavier underwater than an AL80 when both are full. Maybe 5-7 pounds, which means that in temperate waters, it'll reduce your weightbelt nicely. It's when you start to dive doubles that I think the problems occur as you can be VERY negative 8-12 pounds negative per tank, 6 pounds on the plate, a pound on the manifold, jet fins, primary light, etc. You can be 30-40 pounds negative. A buoyancy failure early in the dive could be somehwhat problematic, especially with a deep bottom under you.

Again, I don't think the idea of DIR says "You cannot use HP tanks", because you may weill have an HP tank and only use 3000 PSI in it. Nothing wrong with that at all. To me, the practical problem comes in at some of these local sites where you show up with your small, 120 cuft tank that needs 4000psi to have that volume, and the shop can only push 3100 psi. Now how much gas are you getting? And if you frequent these kids of dive sites regularly (like the springs here in N. FL.), you've spent a lot of money on a tank that give you no more volume than a common AL80.

That LP95 or E7100 sound very good to me both as singles and doubles.

I took both fundies and triox in a wetsuit with HP100 tanks. It was not a problem with the instructors in any way. Before signing up, I spoke with my fundies instructor about it, and after discussing factors affecting tank choice, he agreed that the HP100 was acceptable for me. After taking triox I came to my own conclusion that if I wanted to do those dives (120 to 130 ft) I needed more capacity since rock bottom took half my gas. At that point, it was time to move to doubles. Incidentally, I think the biggest complaint about the HP or E-7 tanks is not their working pressure but that they trim out poorly as doubles. I've never heard or any issues with the E-8s.

I should also mention that I've seen people taking fundies with HP80s, with yoke valves, without jetfins, without can lights, etc. None of this is necessary for DIR-F. The requirements are set out on the GUE website, but if I recall, all that's needed is a bp/w, non-split fins, a long hose, and a lift bag and spool. Unless you're set on making some particular gear change, I think it's better to wait for the class and learn why one piece of gear or another may be optimal.

 

[aquaoren]

Thanks for the list Jim. I am not sure if I am jumping into conclusions but how I understand this, one of the most important criteria is uniformity inside the team. How far does this reach re: other teams? Teams in different areas of the country/world? Teams in different environments?

Like if a DIR guy immigrated would it be easy to slip into another team without replacing most of the gear including tanks? One thing I had hoped to accomplish by choosing my tanks was to get them to Europe with me if desired (and avoid nervously waiting for renewal of exemptions, brr). I totally freaked out when I heard Americans could not get some of their US tanks filled even on trips to Canada (goodbye St Lawrence I thought – what tanks were these??) So, is DIR tank really brand related or mainly team related/consensus dictated (taking into account base premises about properties). If the latter then are your brand choices most common for cold water choices in the US/Canada?

Forget about taking the tanks back to Europe. They will not be filled as they will not have a European approval stamps. May not be an issue if you have your own compressor.
OTOH, You'll be able to sell your tanks here and get two tanks for each of yours back home as steel tanks are cheaper in Europe.
Beside that, You'll be the only one with such tanks back home. There goes the Team uniformity.

 

[piikki]

Forget about taking the tanks back to Europe. They will not be filled as they will not have a European approval stamps. May not be an issue if you have your own compressor.
OTOH, You'll be able to sell your tanks here and get two tanks for each of yours back home as steel tanks are cheaper in Europe.
Beside that, You'll be the only one with such tanks back home. There goes the Team uniformity.

Yeah, I was thinking about not getting too worried about this. Then again getting some Fabers 'stamped' might just be easier if there is some special procedure available (and if employer was to pay hauling them there... I do hope they give me my own compressor as a welcome back gift if I ever go back...

I have educate you a bit though. There is such a thing as Europe but no such thing as European pricing. Steel is common yes but prices vary drastically depending on the country we are talking about. Noway would I get two tanks or even one for the price of a steel tank here in my corner of the Europe (Scand). I do not remember exact prices but last I checked HP80 ran over 300 euros a piece nearby my home town. Hardly a bargain when mine was 249 in dollars at LDS here... And we don't just pop over borders there to get a bargain either because despite European Union it still aint no United States

Just that you would not envy (all of us) too much, I bet there are some lucky bums on the continent there!