Gear dependancy and additional training

[John_B]

What I see with new divers (and I was the "new diver" not all that long ago ) is that newer divers never get a feel for what neutral buoyancy is like. Even with the correct amount of lead, they tend to be (1) too heavy for their position in water column, (2) oriented at 45 degrees, and (3) compensate for being too heavy by subconsciously kicking to maintain depth.

I recently got a chance to spend a week in the water with some new divers including one guy who was brand new and naturally burned through his tank in less than half the time everyone got. I wasn't able to get him to trim out horizontally as well as I'd like with the gear he had, but by having him cross his arms and fins we were eventually able to get him to "feel" neutral. Every new depth, he would get perfectly still except for one hand on his inflator until he could hover. Not perfect, by any stretch, and kicking much more slowly helped to prevent him from rising up the water column when he kicked but at least the difference in air consumption by the last day was huge.

I do see a definite advantage to a steel back plate that naturally has the weight more evenly distributed across the length of the tank when an AL80 gets "floaty" at the end of a dive. I also have seen a good bit of rental gear that was never designed to support a diver being in trim. I don't think the important discussion is whether someone with 500 dives can make that work, I think the better conversation is how task-inappropriate a lot of this gear tends to be for newer divers. Unfortunately many of these are being designed and sold in dive shops everywhere as PFDs instead of buoyancy compensations (warning labels be damned). YMMV.

 

[Nemrod]

People hand swim with their hands pushing down and even back. Heavy fins like Jets used with no exposure gear can cause heavy feet (especially with guys) but this is a minor irritant. The main issue is to much weight thus all the 45 degree feet down attitude kicking and hand swimming to maintain the desired depth.

The thought that this depends upon a equipment, plates and a BC/wing proves the premise of this thread--gear dependency--because it is entirely possible to be neutral and in perfect horizontal trim with no BC. Thus the BC is used by most as a crutch to make possible what the diver alone lacks the ability to do due to lack of skill, improper training and over weighting.

N

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

ZKY-
I've never dove in a kelp forest. What are your complaints exactly about a Hog configuration on these sorts of dives? Almost every other recreational BC setup is more "dangly" than a properly fitted Hog rig. I'm not sure I get it...

Tom

The HOG rig, with my understanding of how it is set up: 7 foot long hose, can light to be able to run the hose under and signalling, dry suit for redundant buoyancy and also to follow the rule of no wet steel, no snorkel because it hinders the donating of a long hose, guage clipped off to the left hip D ring.
I've had kelp wrap around anything and everything when I was set up this way trying to do rocky shore dives on the Sonoma Coast. We have bull kelp and feather boa kelp or weed. Bull kelp grows on rocks down to about 60 feet and has one single pole or tube that is suspended on the surface by a big ball or bulb filled with gas. Off the ball there are many very long stringy leaves that can be as long as 20 feet or more. Sometines this stuff get's really thick, so thick that it is almost impossible to get through. The only option is to go under it or crawl over it and keep pushing it down underneath you to make headway. To do this you have to be in a face down position and everything on your front side has to be as tucked away as possible. Anything sticking out will get hung up on the kelp leaves and you will be trapped. You can't roll over on your back and inflate your wing and kick in because as soon as you do this your tank valve will get wrapped up in kelp and you'll never get out. Can lights, long hoses, drysuit hoses, even the clip holding your spg will all catch kelp. Trying to constantly free yourself and make any headway especially if the ocean is getting rough and the swells getting big can make for a very unpleasant and restricted feeling experience, kind of like being suffocated by a big boa constrictor. Getting in underneath the kelp more times than not is a good way to get knocked out because in the surf zone the water is shallow with rocks sticking up everywhere and the surg can slam you head first into a rock.
Feather Boa kelp is even worse and is the main killer of divers here on the North Coast. More ab divers die of feather boa kelp entrapment than anything else. Feather boa is a very long weedy kelp that is limp and flexible but very strong, unlike bull kelp it is not smooth until the leaves come out of the bulb on the surface. Instead it looks like a bottle brush with small leaves running the whole length of the strand down to where it attaches to the rock. It mainly grows in the intertidal zone down to about 15 feetand feather boa strands can get as long as 30 feet. This stuff really likes to wrap around stuff and as the swell is in a lull it will gently float over you then when the swell comes up it will cinch down and hold you under as the swell picks you up. Pretty freaky feeling!
The idea is to pick spots that don't have much of this but that is hard. Sometimes the entry and exit spots just have a lot of kelp. Kelp is everywhere.
The last straw for me was once getting all wrapped up in that crap while the tide was going out. I was exhausted trying to get in fighting the reverse current. As soon as I made it to the mouth of the cove I had to deal with kelp. My buddy was in the same situation so we were pretty much useless to each other. As soon as he'd unwrap me and get me loose, he'd get tangled up, and we wen't back and forth, the whole time getting slammed. It became every man for himself just trying to get to the beach, and I decided right there and then, That's it, get rid of it! there has to be a better way. So I ditched to whole configuration and now have it stripped down to the bone, which is those conditions actually works better. Your freer and not as bogged down with stuff. My single SPG I just tuck under my waist strap and don't even have a clip on it. I use a straight snorkel to get in and out of coves and do surface swims face down and can save precious air. On a boat I ditch the snorkel but we're talking shore dives here.
I use a single second stage with a 40" hose that I run under my arm and If I'm buddy diving I use a second one under my arm on a 40" octo legth and bungee it under my chin (still the best place - Thanks HOG). I don't have any hoses over my shoulder except for an LP inflator hose if I have a wing on. Looking at me from the front, except for the reg in my mouth, it looks like I'm freediving.

 

[Peter Guy]

Walter: Thanks for not responding to the question regarding the danglies I mentioned -- Do you believe it is a skill issue (not being savvy enough to have the right gear) -- or is it a "gear issue" because the gear isn't configured properly (and what this has to do with a BP/W, Long hose, etc. I have no idea).

For example -- for whatever reason, my LDS has console computers on all its rental regs -- BUT the owner refuses to put anything on the BC's which would allow the renter (of course normally a student) to attach the dangling console (I'm told even to the point of NOT allowing an instructor to provide his students retractors for the dangling consoles -- believe it or not I've been told it is a "safety" issue because having them dangle makes it easier for the DM/Instructor to see their gas gauge).

Walter and Nemrod -- I just wrote a longish reply to your statements that the problem is overweighting -- but then I decided you were probably right and deleted it. Then I decided, maybe we are both right. Here's my issue. You both claim a problem with the 45degree swimmer is that the diver is "overweighted" or else she would ascend when kicking. But then I thought, she may very well be correctly "weighted" but just hasn't balanced herself out with her "Buoyancy Compensator" to make her neutral in the water column -- which is obviously a skills issue. I then decided that what you had meant must be "relatively overweighted" -- that is, overweighted for the amount of lift she is using (not what she could be using). BUT then I thought -- why doesn't she use her BC to become neutral -- and my answer was, because IF she does use her BC to become neutral (a skills issue) she will then start ascending as Walter described. BECAUSE her gear is so out of balance she has to be "out of trim" when neutral (a gear configuration issue) which means she needs to let air out which means she is "overweighted" (in a relative sense) but now she can control herself in the water column by rototilling.

Which comes first -- having gear that won't let you get into "trim" -- not knowing what "good trim" is -- or being "relatively overweighted"? I don't know -- I think knowledge but maybe it is the gear setup.

(Note -- it wasn't until an instructor, not my Fundies instructor, helped me balance my gear that I could then do the skills to standards which allowed my to pass the class. I had the knowledge, I was properly (relatively) weighted but until the gear let me be in trim, it wasn't going to happen.)

 

[Nemrod]

Walter: Thanks for not responding to the question regarding the danglies I mentioned -- Do you believe it is a skill issue (not being savvy enough to have the right gear) -- or is it a "gear issue" because the gear isn't configured properly (and what this has to do with a BP/W, Long hose, etc. I have no idea).

For example -- for whatever reason, my LDS has console computers on all its rental regs -- BUT the owner refuses to put anything on the BC's which would allow the renter (of course normally a student) to attach the dangling console (I'm told even to the point of NOT allowing an instructor to provide his students retractors for the dangling consoles -- believe it or not I've been told it is a "safety" issue because having them dangle makes it easier for the DM/Instructor to see their gas gauge).

Walter and Nemrod -- I just wrote a longish reply to your statements that the problem is overweighting -- but then I decided you were probably right and deleted it. Then I decided, maybe we are both right. Here's my issue. You both claim a problem with the 45degree swimmer is that the diver is "overweighted" or else she would ascend when kicking. But then I thought, she may very well be correctly "weighted" but just hasn't balanced herself out with her "Buoyancy Compensator" to make her neutral in the water column -- which is obviously a skills issue. I then decided that what you had meant must be "relatively overweighted" -- that is, overweighted for the amount of lift she is using (not what she could be using). BUT then I thought -- why doesn't she use her BC to become neutral -- and my answer was, because IF she does use her BC to become neutral (a skills issue) she will then start ascending as Walter described. BECAUSE her gear is so out of balance she has to be "out of trim" when neutral (a gear configuration issue) which means she needs to let air out which means she is "overweighted" (in a relative sense) but now she can control herself in the water column by rototilling.

Which comes first -- having gear that won't let you get into "trim" -- not knowing what "good trim" is -- or being "relatively overweighted"? I don't know -- I think knowledge but maybe it is the gear setup.

(Note -- it wasn't until an instructor, not my Fundies instructor, helped me balance my gear that I could then do the skills to standards which allowed my to pass the class. I had the knowledge, I was properly (relatively) weighted but until the gear let me be in trim, it wasn't going to happen.)

If your feet and legs are angled downward and you are kicking and you are maintaining depth, then you are over weighted. You can solve for this this with simple freshman vector addition.

When you say "my lds" do you mean that you own this particular retail dive equipment store?

I am just going out on a limb but have to say it, going rogue like ZKY, this "trim" thing is largely a manufactured issue.

N

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

If your feet and legs are angled downward and you are kicking and you are maintaining depth, then you are over weighted. You can solve for this this with simple freshman vector addition.

When you say "my lds" do you mean that you own this particular retail dive equipment store?

I am just going out on a limb but have to say it, going rogue like ZKY, this "trim" thing is largely a manufactured issue.

N

Funny how skin divers (freedivers) never seem to argue or have issues with gear or weighting choices; that's because they're pretty much on the same page. They talk about other stuff. When scuba first started it was pretty much the same way because
everyone by in large already was skin diving so the transition just involved throwing on a tank, adjusting your buoyancy to match what you were used to skin diving, learning your tables, buying a good watch, learning what your sac rate was because you had to calculate your time and depth and figure out how much air you had left, and remembering to never hold your breath. Everybody was using the same thing, a DH reg. There was no BC, SPG, ankle weights.
Now look at the scene, it's mind boggleling.

I wouldn't really call myself a rogue, I would say I'm more into going back to the basics (with modern components) to a mindset when it was simpler, freer, and more fun.

Although, for those that don't know where and how it started I guess they could see it as odd or rogue.

 

[Nemrod]

I don't get this all of a sudden "horizontal" crap. I mean like, really now, I don't always want to be horizontal, maybe I want to be upside down, or standing on my head, or completely vertical if I like, maybe I want to be able to position myself as needed or desired regardless. I don't want some air bag device holding me rigidly horizontal, pancake like, in the water column. If I need to be horizontal big deal, get horizontal then, getting rid of a lot of the junk people haul around with them would help all around.

OK, ZKY, you can be the Rogue Minimalist, I am the Zen-er Minimalsit.

N, swim down, swim around and then swim back up

 

[D_B]

I can understand exactly what your saying Peter Guy , John B ... too little air in BC and feet down trim ...
I can do that too if I let some air out at depth and am in a feet down trim .. if I don't kick, or add air, I sink .. this has nothing to do with being overweighted but has everything to do with being neutral, or not, and trim.

(I am not overweighted, I have to make sure no air is in BC to hold at 8 to 10 feet .. so if I'm overweighted than it's by a tiny amount)

 

[John_B]

Well, Nem, horizontal divers are less likely to kick the reef and are also less likely to silt up a dive site. As a side benefit, they will probably get better air consumption for their efforts.

There is a difference between having a natural horizontal orientation in the water column vs. being held "rigidly horizontal, pancake like, in the water column" by "some air bag device" but if that's the extreme you have to take it to make your argument seem rational, then feel free. Some light reading for you, see Straw Man and Logical Fallacy.

 

[Nemrod]

I can understand exactly what your saying Peter Guy , John B ... too little air in BC and feet down trim ...
I can do that too if I let some air out at depth and am in a feet down trim .. if I don't kick, or add air, I sink .. this has nothing to do with being overweighted but has everything to do with being neutral, or not, and trim.

(I am not overweighted, I have to make sure no air is in BC to hold at 8 to 10 feet .. so if I'm overweighted than it's by a tiny amount)

I don't think I follow you?

Trim is a component but the major component is over weighting, once that is dealt with the trim issue often goes away or at least is much easier to access and deal with.

If you are neutral at depth with little air in the BC and correct weighting and you suspend yourself and then your feet drop rise etc then you may have a trim issue. But still, this is the minor problem, the major problem and first to be dealt with is being over weighted which almost all scuba divers today are.

N