Gear dependancy and additional training

[Slonda828]

Here we go again with the logical fallacies. Nobody said there weren't good or even great reasons to "breaking trim". The point being made over and over is that new divers are not taught what its like to be both horizontal and neutral. Probably not even once. How would they know that it was important to keep their fins up and off the reef (or the muck) if their instructor doesn't demonstrate it to them.

OTOH, the original premise of this thread was that the OP said anyone should be able to do any dive with any gear. Are you saying the double hose should be the exception in regards to "gear dependency"?

From wikipedia:

Formal (or Logical) fallacies versus Informal fallacies:
A formal fallacy relies on a logical step in a proof or argument which is incorrect allowing a conclusion to be reached

Just because YOU do not agree with me does not make my argument fallicious. We are not in an official debate, ergo I am not proofing something or formally arguing with you. Still, I'm glad you possess the intellectual capacity to look something up online, even if you don't have the education to use it correctly.

Our shop does teach people to hover, and I have seen some instructors teach it.

The doublehose is an outlier, and has virtually nothing to do with this thread. I simply mentioned it as an example of when you may want to not be horizontal.

I agree with Teamcasa. There are far too many people on here who think that you can only trim out in a BP/W, which is simply not true. Our shop requires recreational gear, and I can trim out fine in a regaular recreational BC and split fins, even though that's not my personal choice on gear. When I dive for me, I dive a BP/W and paddle fins. However, what Teamcasa is emphasizing is that if you are good, you can get skillful enough to be an effective diver without depening on your equipment, which I totally agree with.

Why are you so opposed to this idea? I genuinely want to know.

 

[Slonda828]

But there is also a component of just plain static physics to the system composed of a diver and his gear, and if that system is severely unbalanced, some force will have to be applied to keep it in any position other than the one where it wants to come to rest, and that means the diver will HAVE to move fins or hands constantly. If you don't mind doing that, that's fine. I like to be able to stop and sit absolutely still to look at something, and to do that, my gear has to be at least somewhat balanced. If that's gear dependency, I guess I'm guilty.

I agree with you that your environment dictates your experience in diving, and hence your gear preference. I think that's a very normal and logical comment to make. We are on opposite sides of the coast, but I wouldn't dive in your locale without some training as we very rarely use doubles or dry suits here.

The only part of your well written reply I didn't think was applicable (at least in my case) is the part about balancing your gear. You can balance any rig if you make an effort to do so. I know you only dive a tech rig, but for our shop I have to dive a recreational BC. It doesn't have a plate in it (I usually dive a BP/W when not at the shop), but if I use trim pouches and weight myself correctly, I trim out just fine. There are plenty of people, who even though they they dive non-technical gear, can trim out just fine if they practice. I would argue that a BP/W is inherently more conducive to horizontal trim than a jacket BC, but you can dive properly with either.

I think that one of the big mistakes we make here on this board is that our way is the only way. I know I can trim out in a BP/W, but can you trim out in an Oceanic BC? (I don't mean you specifically). If you can't, then you are gear dependant, which is what Teamcasa is speaking about.

 

[Teamcasa]

OTOH, the original premise of this thread was that the OP said anyone should be able to do any dive with any gear.

Did I? I think my point was pretty clear in that gear does not make anyone a good diver, skill makes a diver better.

The point is, gear does not give you skills. In addition, sometimes gear can make some skills eaiser to learn but can also mask a lack of skill in some areas.

Oh, that's rich! If you think Essentials or Fundies is going to mask *any* lack of skill at *any* level, that shows how little you understand about the learning that takes place in that training. Seriously.

Again, where did I say a Fundies class was going to mask anything? If a diver takes the/a class or is mentored by a competent diver, they will or should improve their skills. (syllogism implied)

We have all read numerous threads where a diver has a difficult time with their buoyancy control or trim and many times the response is a gear based solution. My premises is that skills should come first. Once a diver clearly understands the physics of buoyancy and how their particular body type combined with the conditions they dive in and the effect their exposure protection has on buoyancy only then can they begin to grasp where and how to place the ballast needed to obtain a nice horizontal trim position.

 

[ligersandtions]

If I were to rent a jacket BC, I guarantee I could get neutral (I could also navigate, manage my gas, and keep track of my buddy...). I could probably get myself in trim after a dive or two and playing with weight placement.

Now, when I dive my back plate and wing, with my 7' long hose, back up reg in a necklace under my chin, a can light, steel tank, and a drysuit, THAT DOES NOT MAKE ME DIR! While I do see the benefits of UTD/GUE/DIR training (and not just for overhead environments), just because I'm wearing the proper gear, it certainly does not make me DIR.

If people want to have a debate on gear dependency, we should make it a thread about bp/w versus standard BC (not that we don't already have enough), not standard BC vs DIR.

FWIW, I do dive a back plate and wing set-up, and I love it. Is it because it solved all my buoyancy issues right away? Nope, it's because it's streamlined, places the majority of the weight right where I want it (directly over my lungs), allows me to not have to add weight to compensate for the extra buoyant padding on a traditional BC, keeps my tank stable, gives me a convenient place to store the canister for my light, and because I've been diving it long enough to know it and be able to read the feedback it gives me.

 

[TSandM]

You can balance any rig if you make an effort to do so.

I absolutely agree! And you do it the way you describe, with trim weights, or tank weights, or moving the tank around in the cambands, or switching to negative fins, or any of the many strategies that people suggest when a diver asks about how to do it. What I said was that, if you have your weight in the WRONG place, there is nothing that your skill can do about the fact that you can't be stable in the position you'd like to be in.

I don't dive a standard BC any more, but my husband does, when he teaches. He trims out beautifully -- but he couldn't, in the HP 72s that they were using for pool sessions. He needs no ballast weight in the pool, and the HP72 is so short and put so much weight up high on his body that he simply couldn't balance it out perfectly without adding ballast he didn't need. There's an example of a bad gear configuration, because it couldn't be balanced. He switched to an LP72, which is a much longer tank, and balances perfectly.

 

[Gombessa]

Once I find a gear configuration that I like, I try hard to become as balanced and optimized in it as possible. Insofar as that makes me less comfortable and less experienced in other gear configs I don't often dive, I guess I am "gear dependent." But in that sense I'm not ashamed to say that I strive to be as "gear dependent" as possible, because that's what I dive.

 

[Teamcasa]

If I were to rent a jacket BC, I guarantee I could get neutral (I could also navigate, manage my gas, and keep track of my buddy...). I could probably get myself in trim after a dive or two and playing with weight placement.

Now, when I dive my back plate and wing, with my 7' long hose, back up reg in a necklace under my chin, a can light, steel tank, and a drysuit, THAT DOES NOT MAKE ME DIR! While I do see the benefits of UTD/GUE/DIR training (and not just for overhead environments), just because I'm wearing the proper gear, it certainly does not make me DIR.

If people want to have a debate on gear dependency, we should make it a thread about bp/w versus standard BC (not that we don't already have enough), not standard BC vs DIR.

FWIW, I do dive a back plate and wing set-up, and I love it. Is it because it solved all my buoyancy issues right away? Nope, it's because it's streamlined, places the majority of the weight right where I want it (directly over my lungs), allows me to not have to add weight to compensate for the extra buoyant padding on a traditional BC, keeps my tank stable, gives me a convenient place to store the canister for my light, and because I've been diving it long enough to know it and be able to read the feedback it gives me.

Nicole, this is not a thread about DIR or GUE or any other group. It is also not about BP/W (or any other particular gear configuration) vs jacket BC's.

This thread, and remembering it is in the Basic Scuba forum, asks the question; are you gear dependant or not. Based on the first part of your answer, I'd say you are not. You have a gear configuration preference and that is part of what makes diving unique and fun.

 

[Slonda828]

I absolutely agree! And you do it the way you describe, with trim weights, or tank weights, or moving the tank around in the cambands, or switching to negative fins, or any of the many strategies that people suggest when a diver asks about how to do it. What I said was that, if you have your weight in the WRONG place, there is nothing that your skill can do about the fact that you can't be stable in the position you'd like to be in.

I don't dive a standard BC any more, but my husband does, when he teaches. He trims out beautifully -- but he couldn't, in the HP 72s that they were using for pool sessions. He needs no ballast weight in the pool, and the HP72 is so short and put so much weight up high on his body that he simply couldn't balance it out perfectly without adding ballast he didn't need. There's an example of a bad gear configuration, because it couldn't be balanced. He switched to an LP72, which is a much longer tank, and balances perfectly.

Well said as usual. I agree with what you just said completely. I think that the idea that you recognize that your skills are what make you successful as a diver means that you are not a prisoner of your gear. The big bash I've witnessed against UTD is the standard gear configuration. Having been a military guy, I understand the value of having a SOP. I think it's great that you do that, and I imagine it helps your dives become as effortless as possible. You take it a step ahead though by recognizing that your practice and skill level (NOT just the BP/W) is what makes you efficient.

I can also relate to your husband. If I'm in a pool in shorts with anything other than an AL80 I just sit on the bottom of the pool like a carp unless I have tons of air in my BC, which we all know is the wrong answer as far as being an example to someone new. I really have to base my tank selection on my exposure protection level or I'm all out of whack. I also base my tank selection upon balance characteristics. I find LP72s (yup the old ones) trim me out perfectly.

I think the trick of it is learning how to balance you rig, not really what kind of rig it is per se. It is important to note that what you just so succinctly said, and my follow up both seem to support Teamcasa's position on this thread.

As an aside, if you really want to test your gear dependency, go to a shop and do a pool session in whatever rental BC they carry. I do our open water pool sessions in rental gear once in a while, just to remember what it feels like to be in foreign gear. You have to go back to basics like buoyancy checks, trim checks, tank selection, moving weight off of the belt and into the trim pouches, etc. That is one way to keep your skills sharp and not become addicted to your gear. It will also teach you humility, because for at least 5 or 10 minutes you will look like you used to when you would do the "floaty dance", the "arm flailing dance", or the "yoyo". Remember those?

 

[JeffG]

The big bash I've witnessed against UTD is the standard gear configuration. Having been a military guy, I understand the value of having a SOP.

The requirement of having a standard gear configuration has nothing to do with skills in the water. It is required because of the introduction of DIR.

The two are exclusive.

 

[Nemrod]

Nemrod -- would you be so kind as to clarify a bit what you mean by "overweighting?" While I'll freely admit that too many divers probably have more "extra" weight on them than they need (that is, they would be negative with an empty tank and no air in their BC/Drysuit). However, even you must agree that by putting air into the BC/Wing/Bladder, even an "overweighted" diver can be "neutrally buoyant" in the water column -- can't you? If the diver is neutrally buoyant, then any attitude should be possible -- but, as Walter pointed out, UNLESS they are in a nearly horizontal attitude, when they kick (especially if they do a "full leg flutter kick") they will propel themselves in the direction the head is pointed -- since "forward" is towards the head.

IF the "typical recreational diver" is not close to horizontal, they will need to figure out some other way to go parallel to a relatively flat bottom -- which is the 45 degree angle Walter discussed -- using the gravitational vector (down) to counter the kicking up vector leaving the forward vector the only observable motion. It isn't that they are "overweighted" but that they aren't neutrally buoyant (although they MAY HAVE more weight than they "need").

Does not the question thus become -- why can't they get parallel to the surface so that most of their kicking force is in the direction they want it to be?

??????, I am not going ot teach physics, been there and done that, simply put, if you are inclined and making thrust via your fins at that inclined angle and yet you are remaining at the same depth and moving horizontally then you are over weighted because some of your thrust is being used to buoy you upward--to maintain depth---and some is being used to provide forward thrust.

All of this trim that and trim this, the human body is not a submarine, it is not static. I will stick with what I said, the major factor is over weighting, the minor factor is trim weighting or equipment selection and body positioning (arms crossed, frog kick with bent knee etc).

Due to the over weighting, more air is introduced into the inflatable air bladder device than would otherwise be needed, the differential between center of buoyancy and center of gravity resulting from the weight and natural body tendencies will/can cause a rotational movement. Often crossing arms or extending or retracting legs etc can compensate. Most instead just swim through the water at an inclined angle while actually negative to compensate. As soon as they quit finning they begin to sink, then they add air and rise or become neutral, begin to fin again and suddenly they are to buoyant and thus the typical PadI Yo Yo that has divers bouncing across the reef and bottom. I did not have to take you guys fungies course to know and observe the relationship between these things, it is simple physics and ultimately, common sense.

Eliminate the extra weight, then you don't have to introduce as much air into your inflatable air bag device and then the differential between center of buoyancy and center of body mass is reduced and thus trim is improved.

Get your weight correct first, then adjust your gear and trim weighting etc to fine tune. Not very well said but I am in a hurry, got to go.

N