Gas planning for diving in mixed company?

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stuartv - I forgot to mention it but CCR divers will have a deep gas and sometimes a rich gas. For a dive to 150' I might have a 40cf of 25 or even 19/30 with me. Not good for deco but necessary for me get from 150' to the surface with a very long deco penalty or switch to a rich mix if I have it. At 150', I do not typically carry a rich gas mix as the deep gas is enough. Beyond 150', I typically carry an 40 or 80cf deep and a 40cf rich. With considerations in my planning, I can use SCR techniques to extend the gas I have if my CCR did not flood so I might be planning a little closer to the edge. My planning and gasses may not work well for OCs to use and if we both have to be on it, there can be a fairly large cf obligation which cannot be met with reasonable tank loads.
 
As a CCR diver, is it considered acceptable to plan that you and your buddy will not both have a failure, so it's okay to plan for the CCR diver to donate his BO, if his buddy has a failure?

A CCR diver always plans for a failure of their unit. The idea of 2 failures does not work here IMO. When I donated my 2 BOs to the 2 OC divers, I was very aware of the real risks I put myself into. If I had a CCR failure, I would have a very bad day that could be fatal to me. This is why I would not consider my gas as any part of planning for the OC diver.
 
A CCR diver always plans for a failure of their unit. The idea of 2 failures does not work here IMO. ...//... This is why I would not consider my gas as any part of planning for the OC diver.
Thank you for that!

This has always been my suspicion.
 

Ok, my bad. I did read that you would discuss with your buddy...but had a synapse misfire and forgot that part by the time I got to the reply field... 'tard'

I've been in this situation before...I would treat this as a SOLO dive in terms of gas planning.
 
As the only Open Circuit diver other than two Dive Guides, for a group charter of eight CCR divers on the WWII Aircraft Carrier USS Saratoga (15m to 57m depth range) and other warships at Bikini 2013, we were "tasked" with picking up the additional Alu 11L safeties of bottom mix and Eanx50 stashed on the wreck at the base of the mooring line. Along with my double Alu 11L twinset and deco bottles, that was the first time I ever "juggled" a DPV/Scooter and a total of four 11L cylinders with a leash, as the last support diver ascending up off the wreck to deco stops.

You should be concerned @stuartv : all you have for a gas share is the reserve volume of your backmount doubles. Because of inexperience and training limitations, you've handicapped your mixed team by only being able to carry one additional stage bottle -and that happens to be your own cylinder of deco mix (useless to share with your CCR Buddy except at your MOD of 45ft). . .
Some initial MGR parameters on @stuartv Oriskany Plan:
  • Eanx70 gas switch depth at 40fsw (45fsw @ 1.6ATA)
  • 5 to 6min ascent time including 1 min to problem solve and donate reg for emergency gas share at 170', and then ascend 30 fpm from 170fsw to 45fsw
  • Emergency stressed SAC rate given above as 1.5 cf/min
  • Average depth 108fsw on ascent from 170' to 45'
So Minimum Gas Reserve (MGR) volume of backgas is:
1.5 cf/min x (108/33 + 1)ATA x 6min = 38 cf
Therefore MGR for two Divers: 38 cf x 2 = 76 cf (round to 80 cubic feet for an actual Rock Bottom SPG reading of 1100psi). So 80 cf to get to Eanx70 switch depth of 45' from 170' in an emergency gas sharing contingency.

Total initial fill at 3500psi in double hp120's is 240 cf.
Hence Usable Gas Amount for Keep It Simple Scuba dive profile mission on Oriskany is:

240cf minus 80cf = 160 cubic feet usable.

No penetration, and keeping AL80 of Eanx70 clipped-on: use Rule of Halves -with 80 cf consumed outbound towards bow at 170' alongside Hangar Deck, and 80 cf back to tower mooring/ anchorline at the top of the Island/Flight/Bridge Superstructure. Delta Turn Pressure is 1100psi consumed and down from 3300psi for an actual Turn Pressure SPG reading of 2200psi. Option of using all 160 cf, traversing all the way at 170' to the bow and ascend up at bow's location mooring/ anchorline if Sac Rate & currents are in your favor -but you better be sure to close within the distance of the bow, and can see & reach the mooring/anchorline at the bow with 1100psi actual reading on the SPG, or else you've got a blue water ascent to deco under a deployed SMB.

If all is nominal & benign with no current and easy & low Sac Rate range of 0.6 to 0.7, you should have some time and gas to explore the Island/Bridge Superstructure at 140' to 80'. For a normal no current, no physical exertion ascent to your Eanx70 deco stop at 40fsw, expect to use only 25% of your MGR volume (20 cf); that will leave you with 60 cf of backgas to use after you complete your deco profile should any big pelagics or marine mammals come cruising by shallow to play with you.

Do you have a Nautilus Lifeline VHF broadcast beacon and/or a direct to SAR satellite PLB? And for exploring something this big, how come you aren't utilizing a scooter ? (For the WWII USS Saratoga Aircraft Carrier in Bikini Atoll 2013, we all brought DPV/Scooters to cover the grand tour over 888 feet of it's entire length, and depth ranges from 50' to 190' deep for eight consecutive days). . .

Also, your 20/24 Trimix has a gas density of 5.57 g/L at 170fsw: per Dr. Simon Mitchell's recommendations, a value of less than 6 g/L with plenty of margin is best for preventing CO2 retention, especially if you're expecting a high physical activity heavy breathing Sac Rate at 170fsw approaching 1 cf/min (again, you and your buddy should be using scooters for this reason as well, especially if working against a current at depth!). For future reference when you get full Trimix certified, a standard mix of 21/35 Trimix has a gas density of 4.94 g/L, and 18/45 of 4.33 g/L respectively at 170'.

What made you decide only on one big AL80 of Eanx70 with switch at 40fsw, instead of an AL40 of Eanx50 and switch at 70fsw? The MGR backgas volume going from 170' to 70' is 60.3 cf (round it to 65 cubic feet for a SPG actual reading of 930psi), instead of 80 cf from 170' to 45'. Also you start your decompression & off-gassing sooner . . .at 70fsw with Eanx50, and together with an AL40 Oxygen deco stop at 20fsw, you get a cleaner more efficient inert gas elimination from those stubborn supersaturated slow tissues, as well as two deco gases backing each other up if you lose one or have an unusable deco bottle scenario. . .

What's your deco schedule & profile look like for 170' with 23min BT and Eanx70 deco gas?

For 21/35 with Eanx50 and O2:

Buhlmann ZHL-16B 50/80 (from Deco Planner 3.1.4):
170', 25min;
(ascent rate 30'/min);
70', 1min (Eanx50);
60', 1min;
50', 2min;
40', 2min;
30', 5min;
20', 10min (Oxygen);
10', 6min -->same as slow 3 foot per min ascent to surface on O2.

And how many deco dives do you plan on doing over how many days?
Finally and most important, where is the nearest recompression chamber that will treat emergency diving accidents 24/7? (There's NEDU in Panama City, but the Navy might only treat civilian casualties as a last resort). . .
 
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I have considered that approach. The result is MUCH less bottom time.
You get a lot more time in the cave if you plan halves rather then sixths. But there are potential drawbacks you should consider...
 
Maybe the appropriate plan would be that he plans to carry enough gas to cover us both. I.e. he could bail and I could lose my deco gas, and he would be carrying enough deco gas for us both?

Depending on what he says, maybe I'll just hang a cylinder of deco gas on the anchor line. Hmmm....

He's probably already carrying two bottles for this dive (deep bailout and some richer gas for bailout deco). Seems a bit much to put all the extra gas on him.

Personally, I never plan to have to come back to the anchor line to get deco gas. If **** goes wrong on the bottom, you'll already want everything with you.
 
Pretty much all my diving is as the CCR diver in a mixed team.

I expect the OC diver to plan as if we are both OC and not assume he doesn't need to provide gas. We'd maybe get another 5 minutes if he did assume all the gas was his, but really?

My bailout is enough to get me to the surface. It will be enough to get him to the surface too. Yes, he could have chosen a stupid backgas mix and have loads more deco than I would, but there you go. It would be him getting bent so he is unlikely to do that.

The possible OC failures are:

Backgas: isolate and abort - if still a problem have my deep bailout.
Assuming two deco gases:
First deco gas - stay on backgas until second switch, extend deco a bit.
Second deco gas - deco out on first backgas, taking a while.
With just one:
Deco gas failure: have my shallow bailout.

My shallow bailout is approximately the same as my buddy's second/only deco gas.

A major planning difference is the breathing rate of the CCR diver. His worst case is a CO2 hit. That needs much more gas than an OC diver needs to surface.

If your CCR diver is only carrying one bailout (e.g. the equivalent of AN/DP) then you need to do the numbers about that gas as it will be pretty weak and not so good for deco. However it ought always to be the case that you'd need less gas than the CCR diver at the same point in the dive, assuming you choose a decent bottom gas.

Do do the numbers yourself. I am assuming bailout calculations by the book. Your buddy might not assume a very high SAC for his bailout.
 
As the only CCR diver in my diving group this comes up often.

Because There is nothing down there worth having to deal with a dead friend, I do plan to have OC gas to take a buddy pair up to the surface. My bailout reg has 2 second stages on it for this purpose.

Murphy is the invisible dive buddy, if my partner has a gas failure and ends up taking my bailout tank, that WILL be the time I lose the loop.

If I can't carry the gas for the two of us, I don't do the dive.
 
We are going there next month for the Oriskany. Our group is some TEC but mostly rec. we are told that they launch the TEC divers after the rec divers enter the water since we can only do one dive.

What boat are you using?
 
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