Future of Helium price?

[txaggie08]

General rule of thumb...... if deman starts to increase, and price starts to increase in multiples, the market will usually respond. If helium is going up this much and demand is increasing, you have to believe that the refining and capture industry will respond sooner or later.

 

[shoredivr]

Here in Texas the natural gas is so abundant the oil companies often just flare it off or sell gas at a financial loss, oilprice.com had recent stories where gas companies are actually paying users to take the natural gas off their hands!

Flaring it off is an insane waste of a non-renewable resource IMO. A good illustration of how we get the crazy environment wrecking species certificate.

 

[PfcAJ]

I’m not training with GUE for unrelated reasons, but...

I think that’s the wrong direction. Why doesn’t GUE teach fundies in CCR? If it’s a good class in doubles why isn’t it a better class in CCR?

Because a set of doubles doesn’t make you fall asleep underwater if it (or you) malfunctions.

Rebreathers are more complex and have a higher risk than a set of OC doubles. There’s no reason to introduce that risk and complexity into a class that doesn’t need said risk and complexity.

 

[rjack321]

I’m not training with GUE for unrelated reasons, but...

I think that’s the wrong direction. Why doesn’t GUE teach fundies in CCR? If it’s a good class in doubles why isn’t it a better class in CCR? Why not do T1 in CCR? The thesis of this thread, stated or not, is... how long will will there be mainstream OC tech diving?

And if you think your perfectly dialed in trim with LP108s (or whatever) is going to be clutch on that JJ... I’m skeptical. And I think that’s even a kind assessment.

Many manufacturers and some agencies require AN/DP prior to moving to CCR
You have 100% O2 and resultant hyperoxia risk
You have hypoxia risks
You have a mixing station on your back that takes bandwidth to monitor
You don't need any of that to bimble around in 30ft of water sharing gas, learning good kicks, shooting SMBs, and learning how to be a better buddy. That blinky HUD and handset reading 1.01, 1.35, and 1.32 (bad news) are nothing but distractions from the purpose and goals of fundamentals.

Even if you did want to combine these classes who has the time? GUE-F is commonly a 4 day class, sometimes stretches to 5 if split into 2 weekends with one of those weekends being 3 days and the other 2 days. CCR Mod1 air diluent is minimum 5 days, sometimes 6. So combined you are looking at 10 days minimum. At $300 day for a 3 person class that's $3,000 with no CCR yet. Realistically this kind of zero to hero Fundies plus CCR is probably 2 solid weeks split in two by 6 months and 25-50 loop hours of practice time. And there's no trimix at all in this $3k effort yet.

By mainstream OC tech you mean on trimix? As long as there are CCRs there will be OC bailout and when you actually bail at 200ft (or in a cave) you'll appreciate having a solid OC foundation. There are people who don't have that and go from AN/DP on air to Mod1 (air dil) then Mod2 (finally now on normoxic dil) on CCR. They are sometimes a task loaded CF when they bail on their CCR.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Question:When you take a GUE CCR course, what unit are you being trained in? I have heard RB-80 and JJ-CCR being mentioned. Are those the only two or is there a list of units that are approved for training by GUE? Thanks.

 

[Pozz]

Question:When you take a GUE CCR course, what unit are you being trained in? I have heard RB-80 and JJ-CCR being mentioned. Are those the only two or is there a list of units that are approved for training by GUE? Thanks.

currently the only approved unit for the ccr class is the JJ, the RB80 being a PSCR has it's own class for which tech 2 + 25 T2 dives is still a prerequisite (which makes sense since you still have bottle rotations and gas switches)

 

[Jeremy Williams]

Because a set of doubles doesn’t make you fall asleep underwater if it (or you) malfunctions.

Rebreathers are more complex and have a higher risk than a set of OC doubles. There’s no reason to introduce that risk and complexity into a class that doesn’t need said risk and complexity.

It's a known problem. But if you can't complete fundies without unmanageable risk of hypoxia, then what are you/we/the entire industry even doing? This doesn't seem legitimate to me.

Many manufacturers and some agencies require AN/DP prior to moving to CCR
You have 100% O2 and resultant hyperoxia risk
You have hypoxia risks
You have a mixing station on your back that takes bandwidth to monitor
You don't need any of that to bimble around in 30ft of water sharing gas, learning good kicks, shooting SMBs, and learning how to be a better buddy. That blinky HUD and handset reading 1.01, 1.35, and 1.32 (bad news) are nothing but distractions from the purpose and goals of fundamentals.

Even if you did want to combine these classes who has the time? GUE-F is commonly a 4 day class, sometimes stretches to 5 if split into 2 weekends with one of those weekends being 3 days and the other 2 days. CCR Mod1 air diluent is minimum 5 days, sometimes 6. So combined you are looking at 10 days minimum. At $300 day for a 3 person class that's $3,000 with no CCR yet. Realistically this kind of zero to hero Fundies plus CCR is probably 2 solid weeks split in two by 6 months and 25-50 loop hours of practice time. And there's no trimix at all in this $3k effort yet.

By mainstream OC tech you mean on trimix? As long as there are CCRs there will be OC bailout and when you actually bail at 200ft (or in a cave) you'll appreciate having a solid OC foundation. There are people who don't have that and go from AN/DP on air to Mod1 (air dil) then Mod2 (finally now on normoxic dil) on CCR. They are sometimes a task loaded CF when they bail on their CCR.

The risks of diving a rebreather are well known. What I'm saying is that at some point in the not unimaginably distant future the cost of helium alone is probably going to push mainstream deep technical diving onto CCR. That doesn't mean that nobody will ever dive trimix on OC or that people won't do technical dives on air, just that most people who want to gain the capability to access those deeper sites or longer durations will naturally transition from recreational OC directly to CCR. The idea that you should have hours on OC trimix to dive a CCR with a trimix diluent to deep technical sites will sound silly. Bailout skills will be taught and practiced and used when (rarely) needed.

On the topic of training, I don't think that's true. I believe that most manufacturers and agencies don't require AN/DP equivalent for a CCR certification and allow divers to enter CCR under NDL limits and transition on CCR into decompression diving. I've looked at the standards for IANTD and TDI and this is true for both of them. I think that those two agencies combined may issue the majority of the CCR certifications right now. PADI is no different. GUE obviously doesn't work that way. I don't know of any common unit that those agencies certify on that require AN/DP as a pre-requisite. The only unit that I suspect probably might require AN/DP equivalency might be the RB80 and that won't shock anyone if true. Am I wrong about this? Please share specifics.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

I totally see how cost of Helium will push us all into considering CCR. I, for one am not a fan of CCR and the fact that I have started this thread should signify a change in attitude. I also see the point that Rjack makes. No matter how badly we want it, CCR diving will not become a separate and isolated path from open circuit technical diving because your bailout will turn you into an OC tech diver so you better know that crap before you even think of going into CCR. That bitter fact is as much a reality as the rising prices of Helium.

 

[PfcAJ]

It's a known problem. But if you can't complete fundies without unmanageable risk of hypoxia, then what are you/we/the entire industry even doing? This doesn't seem legitimate to me.

It's not the point of fundamentals. The point of the class is to learn...the fundamentals. You can tell because that's the name of course.

You're not there to learn the fundamentals while also monitoring a CCR to make sure it doesn't turn into a Kevorkian machine. Students in that class have enough going on without that added risk and complexity for literally no benefit.

 

[rjack321]

@Jeremy Williams So I am assuming you haven't taken GUE-F? Are you certified on any CCRs? You absolutely can die of hypoxia in shallow water on a CCR and the biggest risk is becoming task loaded and distracted. I have been in or around a fair number of GUE-F and UTD Essentials classes over the last 15 years- every one of those students is far too task loaded to be monitoring a CCR.

You can't take Mod1 on a Meg without AN/DP. TDI allows it, Leon does not, other units have similar manufacture's limits and prerequisites that are not part of any agency. You still have to comply with them even buying a used unit. I don't think any diver could pass the required ISC exams without having a solid foundation in best mix all the way up to 100%. My first unit was a Meg. I did a crossover to a Kiss and I don't think I could have passed a PSAI CCR class without AN either.

Question:When you take a GUE CCR course, what unit are you being trained in? I have heard RB-80 and JJ-CCR being mentioned. Are those the only two or is there a list of units that are approved for training by GUE? Thanks.

JJ is the only CCR via GUE and you can start on it after the required number of T1 dives.
The RB80 is an SCR with multiple bottles which requires T2 to start.