Fundies: Like the idea, but not the equipment requirements?

[NudeDiver]

In practice, I think you'll find that a lot of us DIR-type divers question EVERYTHING. My Fundies class contained a ton of "Why?"

..and yet, if one goes to the DIR forum and asks a fairly simple question, gets an answer, and then asks "why" - in an attempt to explore and understand the issue - one just gets the **** slammed out of them. Yeah. Open mind. Right.

If somebody can't give me a good reason why they are doing something, I'm going to remain quite skeptical until I can come up with one on my own.

As well you should. And when someone gets all huffy and rightous when you ask "why" - I'm just going to discount anything they have to say. Frankly - I have no interest in diving with this sort of person either. I'm not looking for a new religion when I ask questions about diving. I'm not going to take anything on faith - no matter who invented it or how well it may work for them and their five billion dives around the world.

My post is not directed at you T - you're actually one of the sane ones. Thanks.

As for "ignoring the facts", having "made up one's mind" and "being open-minded" - well - good luck to you.

Cheers!
nd

 

[TSandM]

It's my honest belief that you can have a standardized system and an open mind at the same time. If the people who put the system together are always looking at new developments and evaluating them to see what they might offer the system, that's open-minded. But the system may be quite prescriptive in the meantime, with slow evolutionary changes.

There is no question that the DIR/UTD type systems are relatively prescriptive and highly standardized, because standardization is seen as a significant value of the system (and I believe it is). But it's kind of ironic that virtually everything I own or do was a matter of personal choice . . . I just chose to adopt what the system uses, because it works for me.

Not everybody wants to dive this way! But the point of the thread, as I have reiterated quite a few times now, was to tell people who are already INTERESTED in the system, that there is an option to do an entry-level class without making a bunch of expensive gear changes. After the class, they can evaluate whether this approach is one they want to take further.

 

[Peter Guy]

ND wrote (fairly Off Topic)

if one goes to the DIR forum and asks a fairly simple question, gets an answer, and then asks "why" - in an attempt to explore and understand the issue - one just gets the **** slammed out of them. Yeah. Open mind. Right.

Without attempting to "guess" to what you might be referring (ahem), you are half right, but, in fact, also half wrong.

All the "true DIR" divers I've met are VERY open minded -- really. I've had no end of questions (and, I might add, a fair amount of ribbing too for a couple of my gear choices) answered and almost all answered fairly AND with well considered answers.

BUT, IF you post a question in "The DIR Forum" you should expect, and you will get, "THE DIR Answer" which is really NOT open to discussion in most instances because the discussion of what the answer should be has been had long ago. IF you also ask "why" the answer, my experience has been you'll get a well considered answer. BUT IF you THEN ask "Well why not 'X'" then, IF IT IS A THREAD IN THE DIR FORUM, you are (quite frankly) just trolling (IMHO).

So rather than pick your fight with the Forum, take a chance on learning something YOU DON'T ALREADY KNOW and find an Essentials Class to take. I'd be willing to bet you will learn enough to make it well worth the time, money and effort.

 

[NudeDiver]

BUT, IF you post a question in "The DIR Forum" you should expect, and you will get, "THE DIR Answer" which is really NOT open to discussion in most instances because the discussion of what the answer should be has been had long ago. IF you also ask "why" the answer, my experience has been you'll get a well considered answer. BUT IF you THEN ask "Well why not 'X'" then, IF IT IS A THREAD IN THE DIR FORUM, you are (quite frankly) just trolling (IMHO).

Yeah - it would be an awful thing to try to discuss something, in, you know, a discussion forum. How horrible.

But you're right - I certainly learned my lesson. I will not bother to try to learn anything from the boys in the DIR forum anymore. So much for being, "DIR Curious".

 

[TSandM]

Hey, guys, I really don't want this to degenerate into a "DIR versus the world" thread. We've had plenty of those. This was just an effort to make people aware of a class. Please be nice to one another.

 

[JeffG]

I will not bother to try to learn anything from the boys in the DIR forum anymore.

That shouldn't take too much effort.

 

[fnfalman]

This is why the reefs take a beating... see pic below. Consoles dragging behind divers and sometimes their octo too. No true buoyancy control with fins down on the reef. I have watched divers with hundreds of dives drop down the line and STAND on the bottom! WHAT THE HECK? Buoyancy doesn't come with diving...it must be taught WELL and then practiced.

Once again, this is a diver's issue and not an equipment issue. My console AI computer is tied off to my D-ring ala pressure gauge style. It doesn't drag any more than a pressure gauge would drag. Same thing with octo.

You DIR people confuse personal skills with equipment. Equipment are just that. It's what the divers do with them that matters.

At this point, I think you are going to the extremes about equipment and not looking at the philosophy. Basically you are stereotyping the whole concept.

The concept of computers is to not rely on them for your dive and planning. When diving overheads, we have to first figure out our true pressure in our tanks and then work that out between the team. Depending on the dive, your gas might not all belong to you...the concept of diving 1/3's for example. In overheads, 1/3 of the gas belongs to your buddy so you must plan your dive accordingly. Computers are a crutch and can fail at any time. The concept is to be able to plan your dive and gas usuage based on the dive using the tables you were taught in OW. Yknow, diving the old fashioned way.

Before bashing gear choices, one must understand the reasons why certain types of equipment can hinder divers. Alot of it is because of the areas you dive. Overheads change alot of things and that is why certain types of gear choices are not used. But I do find that the skills and equipment I use for overhead diving makes alot of sense in OW. The concept of streamlining and keeping you gear tight with you makes alot of sense. I don't have to guess where my octo is (can you give air to an OOA diver in less than 5 seconds? I can and I have timed it)...I don't have to guess where my console is...I don't have to worry about getting entangled against the reef or breaking coral with my fins or gear. I don't have to worry about finding something cool and then stirring up the bottom as I swim away and ruin it for the next diver.

The Fundies course will cover all aspects of diving. From gas planning, equipment uses, awareness, buoyancy and propulsion techniques. It will definitely make you realize you don't know as much as you thought you did. It's not to make you look foolish, but to improve your diving which then improves your experience when diving in the future. Especially if you are faced with a critical situation. I have almost lost my mask due to ripping currents from a high flow cavern to another diver on the line finning my face. I have practiced breathing without my mask on...it's not easy and if you haven't done it I highly recommend it. The bubbles from your reg go right up your nose. It can be a panicky situation and can make a person want to bolt. Can you ascend from 100' comfortably without your mask? It's scenarios like that and others that this kind of course can prepare you for.

Fundies is not for everyone, and there really is no reason to nitpick certain aspects that you tend not to agree with. The OP was just pointing out that there are courses that are available to make you a much stronger and confident diver. If you are biased about the philosophy, so be it, but there is no reason to go crazy talking about the color of fins etc.

Carolyn:shark2:

If fundies are so right about non-computer use then how come there are tech computers abound? How come commercial divers and exploratory divers use them?

Of course you suppose to do gas plans before hand. That goes without saying, and it applies for a plain jane pissant 40-ft rec dive all the way to a cave exploration dive.

I'm all about training and learning new things. But what I'm not about is dogma.

 

[Blackwood]

If it was for zero viz training then all team members should be maskless.

And they sometimes are. Baby steps.

 

[JeffG]

First this statment

If fundies are so right about non-computer use then how come there are tech computers abound? How come commercial divers and exploratory divers use them?

and then this one.

I'm all about training and learning new things. But what I'm not about is dogma.

Does anyone else see the humor?

 

[Blackwood]

The instructor said that there is a backup mask deploy drill in Tech 1, but no mention of a maskless ascent, which IMO seems like a neat thing to try, but yeah probably not too likely to happen in real life.

It's pretty relaxing being the guy without the mask. Everyone else does all the work