Fundies: Like the idea, but not the equipment requirements?

[TSandM]

I don't think the person who posted the criticism was saying that they weren't expected to maintain good buoyancy and trim. I think he was saying that they weren't given much information on how to improve either. It's my husband's criticism of his Fundies class, too, but I have certainly read of others where more time was spent on the "how".

Having not done the UTD instructor class, I don't know what they are taught about helping with the "how", but I can tell you that working with Andrew himself, he was very good at helping me figure out WHY I was having trouble with certain things, and what I could change to improve them. (Everything except the midwater disorientation issue, and nobody knows what to do about that )

 

[b1gcountry]

I'd just like to point out that a lot of GUE instructors are also PADI instructors. They will indeed teach you in any configuration you wish to dive, you just may get a different card because of it.

Tom

 

[fnfalman]

First this statment

and then this one.



Does anyone else see the humor?

See the humor in what?

How's a black mask going to make or break a technical diver who isn't hunting or on a photographical mission?

How are all black gears going to help with establishing trim, buoyancy and do gas planning?

I'm an engineer, if you're going to tell me that something is right, you better be able to prove it to me scientifically and not
"it's because that's how we do it".

Solid fins? No problem. I like split fins, but when I tried to use them in helicopter turns, they don't work too well. Do-able, but not too efficiently.

Continuous webbing? Puh-leeze. Tell Lamar Hires of Dive Rite that he couldn't have done all those exploratory cave divings with his TransPac and the newfangled non-hog harness.

Having a dive computer doesn't mean that the diver automatically forgo gas plans. Are there divers put their faiths entirely in computers? Yes. Should they be doing that? No. But then is that the diver's fault or the computer's fault? It's a piece of equipment, no more no less.

 

[Blackwood]

How's a black mask going to make or break a technical diver who isn't hunting or on a photographical mission?

Huh? The black skirt isn't for sneaking up on prey or subjects.

 

[RonFrank]

I like the black mask skirt because it prevents distractions, and I do UW photography. I started out with a clear skirt, and found that the out of focus distractions that I could see, but not really see, and the glare from sunlight entering in though the clear areas was annoying.

I'm a huge proponent of do what works for you. If some like clear skirts that is great. It's just not my cup of tea.

 

[TSandM]

Sigh . . . Why is the myth that DIR diving requires all black gear so pervasive?

Black masks are suggested -- not required -- because clear skirts admit more stray light, which is very distracting in low light environments (like caves). But the major characteristics of a mask should be that it fits well and is low volume, and therefore easy to clear.

We can argue all day about the various gear decisions involved in a DIR/UTD type system, but we won't get anywhere, because no one ever has. The fact is that it is a standardized system, and the approach either appeals to you or it doesn't. If it doesn't, great! You don't need this class. (You might want to learn some of the skills taught in it, though . . . ) If it does appeal to you, but you'd like to see more before making an expensive gear commitment, this Essentials class is an option.

 

[DaleC]

I'm an engineer, if you're going to tell me that something is right, you better be able to prove it to me scientifically.

As an engineer you will understand that the DIR/GUE/UTD systems are very much like a suspension bridge. True, you can pick apart each individual strand and find valid exceptions for their alteration but that would be foolish because they are meant to be utilized as a whole. The component parts, when used together, provide the stability and strength.

If you want to span a gap, whether it is the San Fran bay or the dangers of diving, you choose whatever system works best for you. There are many different bridges (diving systems) in the world and each has its own value. To each his/her own. But to stand on a suspension bridge and say "I don't need that strand" or "I would use a different material for that strand" just shows a lack of understanding of how such a bridge gains its strength.

Optimized gear configuration is a blue herring IMO in all of this. The value comes from everyone being on the same page, practising the same skills, planning the same way etc... How long would that strength endure if everyone could just tweak things a bit to their favor?

I'm not a DIR diver (yet) BTW. I'm not sure how far down that path I will eventually go but I do see the value in the system. I'm not really a "joiner" and will dive with pretty well anyone but there is something there that I want. When 4 divers meet in a parking lot with 4 different gear configurations and 4 different ideas of how to execute a dive - yet they all come from the same training agency - you know things could be better.

How do I currently cope?
I dive with complete redundancy and practise being a self sufficient diver. I work hard to be a good buddy but do not depend on my buddy for anything. At any point in the dive I am prepared to solo. That means I have to pack a lot of extra gear and put limits on the extent of my diving and all of this has to do with my side of the equation - wouldn't it be interesting if I had all of my skills and knew I could depend on my buddy being there, on their gas management, on their responses to issues and on their gear. That is the value of DIR/GUE/UTD.

If there is another group/agency that, as a whole, promotes such coehesion, please let me know.

 

[scubadada]

It started with an innocent, informative post by TSandM informing us of a potential training opporunity to take advantage of some of the concepts of GUE without the severe gear requirements. 106 contentious posts later, where do we stand? I dive a Scubapro Knighthawk, short hose primary, Air 2. I would very seriously consider taking UTD Essentials for the quality of instruction designed to expand my horizons. Let's all attempt to maintain a modicum of flexibility and tolerance in our ideas. To each their own, no one must do anything not of their own choosing.

Good diving, Craig

 

[John_B]

But seriously, it's nice. Your buddy twists your hand a bit meaning "go up," waves it back and forth meaning "level off," etc.. All you do is sit there and vent gas when necessary.

I don't know whether I can say definitively whether a maskless ascent is real world training or just a drill to ingrain and practice for taskloading. What I do know is that not being able to see clearly while doing a standard ascent or breathing from your buddy's primary is a tremendously useful drill for getting a grip on what an ascent should feel like. When you ascend with breathing vs when you need to vent the wing. This is something that I will be practicing on every dive for some time to come (but with my mask on, thankyouverymuch). The other thing I got with this was a much greater overall comfort level with my mask off, even in cold water. I do know that I've been on dives where I wouldn't want to have a direct ascent to the surface as my only option, mostly due to overhead boat traffic.

you better be able to prove it to me scientifically and not "it's because that's how we do it".

The irony to the above quote is that the Essentials course that I took and that TSandM posted about would, at some level, allow you to prove this scientifically both to yourself and with input from the instructor. On a whiteboard, at the surface, and in the water. As long as you are open to thinking about how buoyancy, weighting and trim are affected using a BCD vs. BP/W, you'd probably benefit a lot from it. This was more about trim than gear, though gear plays its part at this level and further on esp. with when diving as a team. And of course, configuration issues become much more critical at future levels.

The other thing I want to stress was that, in my class with Jeff, there was not a single time where the "why" to some drill or configuration or planning was "because that's how we do it". Quite the opposite in fact, we were encouraged to delve into the details and explanations, even when the answer lies way beyond the level where we were in the class. For example, the reason for a left d-ring but no right d-ring has to do with how the configuration with stage or deco bottles will work, with or without a scooter, and that nothing they do at this level needs to be "undone" or "unlearned" for any later training. As another example, my classmate wasn't sold on the hog harness and long hose to start the class, and he may or may not go over to a BP/W for his normal diving, but he certainly understands the differences in how they affect his weighting and trim, and I'd be shocked if he didn't have a long hose for his primary the next time I saw him diving.

In the end, only you decide how much of the Essentials you incorporate into your own diving.

 

[LIVES4SHARKS]

See the humor in what?

How's a black mask going to make or break a technical diver who isn't hunting or on a photographical mission?

How are all black gears going to help with establishing trim, buoyancy and do gas planning?

I'm an engineer, if you're going to tell me that something is right, you better be able to prove it to me scientifically and not
"it's because that's how we do it".

Solid fins? No problem. I like split fins, but when I tried to use them in helicopter turns, they don't work too well. Do-able, but not too efficiently.

Continuous webbing? Puh-leeze. Tell Lamar Hires of Dive Rite that he couldn't have done all those exploratory cave divings with his TransPac and the newfangled non-hog harness.

Having a dive computer doesn't mean that the diver automatically forgo gas plans. Are there divers put their faiths entirely in computers? Yes. Should they be doing that? No. But then is that the diver's fault or the computer's fault? It's a piece of equipment, no more no less.

I think you are taking things out of context and not understanding the philosophy. Keeping things simple with the LEAST amount of FAILURE points is the goal. With continous webbing, there are no multi failure points with buckles like on many standard BC's. No one says to wear all black...my dive buddy has yellow jets! The skirt of the mask has to do with glare, especially with use of HID lights. In the course, computers are taken out of the equation so that they are not a crutch that many divers have come to rely on.

To understand DIR is to basically take a good majority of failure points out of the equation with gear setups. That also has to do with taking the failures out of the divers also. Using the right skills for the right environment is crucial, not just for the individual diver but for their teammate as well. That is why the gear is standard and there is no second guessing by the diver or any of his/her team. The mentality is to dive as a team unit, especially when venturing into situations where a quick exit is not possible. In these circumstances, problems must all be resolved underwater until a safe exit can be obtained by the team. Sometimes even in OW, a fast bolt to the surface is not possible when there is a deco obligation.

Again, if you are not interested in learning anything about the system, the philosophy, the gear choices, or the skill sets, by all means move on out.

The fact that an introductory course is now available to give divers a taste of other ways of diving, and in my opinion, diving safer with more skill and confidence is something I feel would benefit a great many people.

Peace out!
Carolyn:shark2: