Fundies: Like the idea, but not the equipment requirements?

[ClayJar]

One important feature of the training is to solve problems before entering the water, hence the backup masks. It always seemed to me to be more hazing than training. If it was for zero viz training then all team members should be maskless. I'm not trying to argue, I just don't believe in practicing for situations that should never occur. Otherwise, you should also practice losing fins. I've seen this happen a couple of times, but never saw anyone lose a mask underwater.

There are two types of training. In the obvious type of training, you take a skill that the student needs to learn, and you drill that skill until it becomes second nature. Mask clearing is the poster child for this direct training. Just as important, in my opinion at least, is the *other* type of training. Let's call it "indirect" training.

In indirect training, you contrive exercises that may have no direct relevance to any particular situation you should ever encounter in diving, and you use those exercises to work on less concrete aspects of diving skill. A NAUI DM candidate has to do buddy-breathing while swimming along underwater, with half the exercise done maskless. This is *not* because there's any likelihood of needing to share a single regulator with a highly-trained buddy while swimming horizontally underwater with no mask for several minutes -- you'd have executed an ascent *well* before you got to that point. Rather, the exercise is there for other reasons: it places you in a more stressful situation to show how you respond, and it requires you to execute to a skill level in excess of what you would expect even in a problem situation.

Although I have not taken Fundies or Essentials, from the many posts from those who have I can infer that there is a great deal of both types of training in those classes. There is obviously the direct training of having to learn and execute the skills with grace and precision. Forcing you to perform to exceptional standards (relative to what is needed on a "normal" dive) or throwing a few flaming torches in while you're juggling the bowling pins is less direct but every bit as valuable toward helping you forward.



I would very much like to be able to offer something like this Essentials to students I see in the classes I DM with our shop. Although our divers are complimented quite often (so we're definitely above the curve, wherever that is ), I've commented and heard our divers commenting about dives getting silted up. They don't like it, but we're not really offering any specific training to them at this point. They know they'd like diving to be better (less silt, etc), but for the most part, they haven't realized that it *can* be.

Seeing "Essentials" out there, I definitely need to look into it more to see what I can use from it to help divers here in Baton Rouge better themselves (until we get a local UTD/whatever instructor... Baton Rouge is *GREAT*, guys! [jedi]This is the house you're looking for...[/jedi]). We've already been playing around coming up with new and more effective pieces of training, and while sending individuals over to California (or getting enough interested to get someone to visit here) isn't likely, the desire is certainly there... in some, at least.

 

[TSandM]

I find it HIGHLY IRONIC that a DIR diver suggest that one must have an "Open Mind"!

In practice, I think you'll find that a lot of us DIR-type divers question EVERYTHING. My Fundies class contained a ton of "Why?" If somebody can't give me a good reason why they are doing something, I'm going to remain quite skeptical until I can come up with one on my own. The reason we dive the system isn't because somebody told us to . . . It's because we were offered what we found to be compelling (or at least acceptable) reasons to do it that way.

GUE doesn't do maskless ascents any more, for precisely the reason that Max Bottomtime presents. The likelihood of ever having to do one for real is so low that they don't think you need to practice it. You WILL have to remove your mask and replace it with your backup. UTD does maskless work as a way to increase diver stress tolerance, work on team skills, and improve buoyancy control with reduced visual reference.

 

[amascuba]

The no-mask drill during class doesn't really have much to do with a real life scenario. It's more to do with team work, in water comfort, and control. The maskless person is guided during the whole process by a team mate with touch contact and doesn't even need to open their eyes.

Even in OW classes, the mask flood and remove/replace skills are the skills that most people have a problem with. It's purely psychological and not really a physical limitation. Same difference here.

Dollar for dollar, my Fundamentals class was the best class that I've ever taken and I had taken it with nearly 200 dives under my belt. I expect the same with the Essentials class given the founders history and reputation within the diving industry.

 

[TSandM]

ClayJar, have a look at the UTD website -- their classroom materials can be purchased by any instructor, from any agency, to assist that instructor in his teaching. (See information HERE.)

 

[Randy43068]

Valve drills have changed to reflect a failure most likely to happen on a dive, as opposed to some theoretical failure. GUE training isn't static. They change training based on what works, it seems to me. That's the kind of training agency I want.

From what I know GUE suggests equipment that's been proven to work well in most dive environments. Perhaps not all, but any recreational dive situation I can think of, the system works well. The GUE system has been proven time and time again, so why is that so closed minded to want to keep it? Prove some dive training or idea is better, if it truly is, I'm sure GUE will investigate it, and adopt that idea if truly it's better.

 

[Gombessa]

We're getting a bit off-topic from Essentials here, but from my experience:

When I took it, essentials did have a mask purge and mask remove/replace. It did not have a no-mask swim or maskless ascent.

Fundamentals had a mask purge and mask remove/replace. It also had a maskless swim with both buddies helping out. One of my teammates wears contacts, and did all of his maskless work with his eyes closed. If ever he lost his mask on a real dive, he'll open his eyes. There was no maskless ascent drill.

The instructor said that there is a backup mask deploy drill in Tech 1, but no mention of a maskless ascent, which IMO seems like a neat thing to try, but yeah probably not too likely to happen in real life.

 

[RonFrank]

I don't want to turn this into a DIR debate, but most of the worlds divers do very well without the use of a BP/W. I love my travel BC which is a Zeagle Stiletto... not DIR. I like using a black skirted mask, but a LOT of folks prefer clear skirts. I use BioFins for Open Ocean diving, and prefer them over my paddle fins in that environment. I have a good understanding of dive tables, but rely on my Computer for multi-level profile dives. My brain is a sanity check on the computer.

Most DIR divers I know are very reasonable folks whom I have great respect for. However DIR is NOT a very open minded approach which IMO is one reason that it has not been adopted into the mainstream by most divers. Dive Computers, Octo+'s, BC's, split fins, and many other non-DIR equipment is what most of the world dives. I understand the DIR philosophy, but to suggest it is somehow *open minded* is just not true.

Hence the creation of the Essentials classes!

 

[Gombessa]

I like using a black skirted mask, but a LOT of folks prefer clear skirts.

*Tangent*

This black-skirt mask thing is a mystery to me. Fully half of DIR or GUE divers I know use a clear skirt mask. I couldn't find a black-skirt mask that fit me as well as a clear, so now I've got a couple more clears too. My GUE instructor has a clear skirt. I think it was GI3 who preferred clear skirts because in a total silt-out, you could only read your gauge by holding it up to your mask and shining your light through the skirt (or something like that). I've never heard that clear-skirts are not DIR.

As TS&M said, you use the mask that fits.

 

[LIVES4SHARKS]

How are the reefs taking a beating because of inline octo, short primary hose and air integrated computers?

Do these things magically make a diver's buoyancy control worse than a pressure gauge, depth gauge, bottom timer and slate?

Don't blame the diver's lack of skills on equipment.

This is why the reefs take a beating... see pic below. Consoles dragging behind divers and sometimes their octo too. No true buoyancy control with fins down on the reef. I have watched divers with hundreds of dives drop down the line and STAND on the bottom! WHAT THE HECK? Buoyancy doesn't come with diving...it must be taught WELL and then practiced.

Totally agreed. HOWEVER, I do have an issue with the GUE/DIR gears. Teach me how to dive. Teach me proper finning techniques. Teach me how to establish buoyancy control.

But my using a dive computer has zero to do with kicking techniques and buoyancy control.

My clear mask has zero to do with kicking techniques and buoyancy control.

My colored fins has zero to do with gas calculations and dive plannings.

At this point, I think you are going to the extremes about equipment and not looking at the philosophy. Basically you are stereotyping the whole concept.

The concept of computers is to not rely on them for your dive and planning. When diving overheads, we have to first figure out our true pressure in our tanks and then work that out between the team. Depending on the dive, your gas might not all belong to you...the concept of diving 1/3's for example. In overheads, 1/3 of the gas belongs to your buddy so you must plan your dive accordingly. Computers are a crutch and can fail at any time. The concept is to be able to plan your dive and gas usuage based on the dive using the tables you were taught in OW. Yknow, diving the old fashioned way.

Before bashing gear choices, one must understand the reasons why certain types of equipment can hinder divers. Alot of it is because of the areas you dive. Overheads change alot of things and that is why certain types of gear choices are not used. But I do find that the skills and equipment I use for overhead diving makes alot of sense in OW. The concept of streamlining and keeping you gear tight with you makes alot of sense. I don't have to guess where my octo is (can you give air to an OOA diver in less than 5 seconds? I can and I have timed it)...I don't have to guess where my console is...I don't have to worry about getting entangled against the reef or breaking coral with my fins or gear. I don't have to worry about finding something cool and then stirring up the bottom as I swim away and ruin it for the next diver.

The Fundies course will cover all aspects of diving. From gas planning, equipment uses, awareness, buoyancy and propulsion techniques. It will definitely make you realize you don't know as much as you thought you did. It's not to make you look foolish, but to improve your diving which then improves your experience when diving in the future. Especially if you are faced with a critical situation. I have almost lost my mask due to ripping currents from a high flow cavern to another diver on the line finning my face. I have practiced breathing without my mask on...it's not easy and if you haven't done it I highly recommend it. The bubbles from your reg go right up your nose. It can be a panicky situation and can make a person want to bolt. Can you ascend from 100' comfortably without your mask? It's scenarios like that and others that this kind of course can prepare you for.

Fundies is not for everyone, and there really is no reason to nitpick certain aspects that you tend not to agree with. The OP was just pointing out that there are courses that are available to make you a much stronger and confident diver. If you are biased about the philosophy, so be it, but there is no reason to go crazy talking about the color of fins etc.

Carolyn:shark2:

 

[JeffG]

However DIR is NOT a very open minded approach which IMO is one reason that it has not been adopted into the mainstream by most divers.

I guess your idea of "open mindedness" is to go dive while violating the principals of DIR. LOL

I understand the DIR philosophy

I don't think you do.