Fundies kicked my a$$

[TSandM]

Gee . . . I just bought a Deep Outdoors wing from a fellow SBer. I like Deep Outdoors doubles wings; I already had one, but this one was bright yellow! I bought it. As soon as the purchase was confirmed, I ordered a shorter corrugated hose from NE Scuba Supply, because the one thing I know about DO wings is that the inflators hang a couple of FEET below me.

Funny, I don't own a Halcyon wing.

Mossman, you are so far off base in so many ways. Although I have thoroughly enjoyed your counterpoint as an opportunity to write yet another exposition of why I like the way I dive and the classes I have taken, I think it's time for you to retire and go home. You don't know what you are talking about; you are promulgating misinformation, and your objections are specious.

 

[vladimir]

It seems like the Scubaboard has helped Crush resolve his reservations regarding backplates, anyway. That's a good thing--that's what the discussion here is for, isn't it? I would suggest that his history of posting with an eye towards stirring up debate should incline him towards welcoming Mossman's input here, however unwelcome it might otherwise be.

Dear BP/W-philes,

What makes you tick? I may like, or even love my gear (mmm, spring straps), but in responding to posts on regs I try to not bring up safety sausages, and in responding to posts on computers I try to not mention the type of fin I use. However, to me it seems that BP/W is the cure to whatever diving malady ails me. It will help me achieve better trim (clearly proper weighting through any other means is impossible), get more bottom time (streamlining by other means cannot be achieved), allow me to avoid getting speeding tickets and will lessen the severity of jelly stings. Don't get me wrong - I am sure that it is great for you and works for you. Heck, it might even work for me if I gave it a try. The point is that I travel to many of my dive sites and a nice travel BC suits me just fine.

Is there a "you-drank-the-Kool-Aid" emoticon on SB? You know, a cross between and :guillotine: with a very healthy dose of thrown in? Even a "Call the Question" (cf. Robert's Rules of Order) icon to help focus people on what the OP asked, as opposed to what you are dying to say?

First of all, those who are offended by this post will cite my limited number of dives - not that many. I live three and a half hours (yes, one way) from the nearest diveable body of water and was certified two years ago this coming Saturday, so I do the best I can. If the best retort you can offer is derision, well, I feel sorry for you.

Can anyone tell me how to stop pointing out that there is more than one way to dive? For example, I dive a (rear inflate) BC and am seriously thinking about BP/w, but BP/w-philes (for the most part) think that the only way to dive is BP/w - sure, your system may have advantages for you, but is it the only way to dive, especially if I am an OW diver? I dive with a slung pony bottle - that too is wrong, according to many vocal elements on SB, despite the fact that many certifying agencies recommend a Y-valve or pony for deep dives. Finally, while learning to hover horizontally has been a great benefit to my diving, I can't bite my tongue when someone posts "you should only dive horizontally."

Here is your chance - what do you think?

Let me begin by stating that I find the term "poodle jacket" to be pejorative, but I chose to use it to differentiate BP/w from other forms of BCs.

I completed an NACD Cavern cert and was allowed to use my BC during the course - it is a pretty minimalist Zeagle Scout. Our instructor was concerned that we tame our gear and minimize the possibilities of snags.

I am considering going on to try to complete an NACD cave singles cert. In order to do the course, I will need a BP/w. My question is: why? If I don't need doubles, and my Scout is a minimalist rear-inflate BC, and my trim is good, why do I need a BP/w? Assuming for the moment that I don't want to transition to doubles, what benefit will I get from a BP/w if I can already hover in a horizontal position for a long time without doing a "fairy flutter?"

This is not a troll - I am looking for honest advice. However, if you must, flame away.

I have read several posts indicating that when the poster went to a BP/w (from a vest BC) they were able to drop several pounds off their weight belt. The fact that this reduction in weight belt weight is seen as positive is perplexing to me - what am I missing?

Does somehow the total weight (i.e., all gear, including all weights) carried by the diver drop if using a BP/w? If so, are vest-style BC really that buoyant? Assuming that vest-style BCs are not that inherently buoyant, there seems to be some kind of BP magic going on here...

If you drop 4# from your belt but have an extra 4# on your BP (as part of what it is made of, assuming a 6# SS BP), why is this an advantage? Your total weight is unchanged, and for those with bad backs, it is better to carry the weight on your hips rather than on your back. Sure, having the weight over your shoulders may help to trim you out, but the same effect can be achieved by taking weights off your belt and putting them on the top cam strap of your vest-style BC.

 

[vshearer]

I will say, this has turned into a kinder, simpler war.

Oh, what is the DIR accepted speargun? And does it go left or right?


(Sorry, couldn't help myself)

..and fundies just for fun is in my future.

 

[Crush]

It seems like the Scubaboard has helped Crush resolve his reservations regarding backplates, anyway. That's a good thing--that's what the discussion here is for, isn't it? I would suggest that his history of posting with an eye towards stirring up debate should incline him towards welcoming Mossman's input here, however unwelcome it might otherwise be.

LMAO! Good digging, vladimir! While I may have mellowed a bit, I still agree with most of what have I posted (and you have quoted). My criticism is not inconsistent with taking Fundies. For example, I still believe that the average vacation diver is just fine with a BC and does not need a BP&W. I further believe that, with properly positioned trim weights, a BC diver can achieve awesome trim. And wearing a BP&W hasn't improved dating... I could go on, but I won't. These beliefs have not prevented me from seeking out additional training from GUE.

 

[Tortuga68]

And wearing a BP&W hasn't improved dating...

You're supposed to take it off after the dive

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It seems like the Scubaboard has helped Crush resolve his reservations regarding backplates, anyway. That's a good thing--that's what the discussion here is for, isn't it? I would suggest that his history of posting with an eye towards stirring up debate should incline him towards welcoming Mossman's input here, however unwelcome it might otherwise be.

I couldn't be happier for Crush ... passing Fundies on the first go is an achievement to be proud of. Mossman's participation has had an impact as well ... I've received several PM's from people who said that the responses to Mossman helped stimulate an interest in learning more about the class. I suspect TSandM and others have probably received similar PM's. To my concern, doing some homework about any class before signing up for it is a good thing ... so in that respect, that aspect of the thread did have some positive consequences.

And to those who PM'ed asking me to stop responding to Mossman's posts, I hear ya ... it's a pity we had to kill a horse in a thread that was intended to be so positive, and I do apologize to Crush for my part in that. But he did want to encourage folks to learn more about Fundies, and I think the responses to Mossman have helped to make that happen.

Rock on, Crush ... the payoff in your $700 investment is just beginning ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You're supposed to take it off after the dive

... for some reason I'm not being given the option to "Like" this post, so ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Crush]

I couldn't be happier for Crush ... passing Fundies on the first go is an achievement to be proud of...

...and I do apologize to Crush for my part in that. But he did want to encourage folks to learn more about Fundies, and I think the responses to Mossman have helped to make that happen.

Thanks Bob. No need for an apology - the battle doesn't bother me and I believe that threads are dynamic, living entities that evolve in time under the influence of participants. You and mossman can keep at it for all I care. I'll keep following the battle with amusement.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

... $700 for one course is friggin expensive;

Wait'll you decide to get into tech training ... my initial cave class was $1800, plus about another $400 for fills and entry fees ... that covered 8 days and 20 dives ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Tortuga68]

I recently signed up for GUE-F in Puerto Galera with Gordon Liew next month - will post a report after completion

Now I have to go and set up all my Halcyon gear & dig out my black wetsuit