fundies in the north east?

[Chris Sawallich]

$40.00 to $60.00 (4-6 students) an hour to teach a dir-f - trim, buoyancy, team skills, some basic math etc is a gravy job that doesn't include doing 7 years in university.

I personally would do that all day long if our area would support such a thing.

Steve, I do not think the numbers add up quite right. $40.00 to $60.00 dollars an hours may be close to the time the actual students sees his instructor work. As mentioned in this thread a few times, From the begining, the Fundamentals class can be extremely challenging to set up taking up alot of the instructors time, there are travel expenses that are usually not 100% covered by the students, nevermind the travel time spent traveling to the class, which for some instructors could mean a day or two of travel each way, again not compensated for. As all GUE courses are video taped some instructors may compensate a video diver wether that by compensating them for their expenses, or a straight up fee.

Anyway the $40.00 to $60.00 may be an excellent rate for the 10 hours a day of actual instruction in a four day class. That also is contigent on filling the class with six students.

Allbeit that being a GUE instructor does not require a four year degree, but the GUE ITC is a very intense course, with a very large amount of internship required and alot of time spent away from home. And again, all at the expense of the prospective instructor.

I do agree that the fes can look very attrctive to an instructor at first but when you put it all together, it kind of falls apart. It really has to be a dedicaton to the Training and philosophy that keeps an instructor going.

 

[Steve R]

After 5 pages of replies to this thread it makes me smile when I think that on another thread someone questioned me when I called the present incarnation of DIRF a monstrosity compared to what it was meant to be. A "Pre-DIRF DIRF"??? It boggles the mind.

Have to say it did cross my mind as well

CBSAW:

You need to get past the money end of things and look at the actual problem we are discussing.

A student doesn't give a rats behind how much you make or what it took you to get there (Which doesn't include a GUE ITC just to teach these basic skills, although it would require such to teach a GUE dir-f).

All they care about is what they have to drop and what they are getting for it, and what problems a lot have faced because of how the class is run.

Trace did a great job in his post. Go read it. That is the issue.

 

[Chris Sawallich]

I was replying to your comments that were totally off topic also,about how much an Instuctor may be making per instruction given, All overhead cost go together and you were totally down playing cost per hour, and yes it does end up being "COSTS" per hour.

I did read Trace's post before my my post to you, and did not feel it warranted any comments, as he did an excellent job posting his view points, Well said trace.

We all have our own views and here are mine, I currently feel that fundamentals is not currently tough enough, and standards could be tightened up a little bit more is some aspects. If I wanted training from an orginization that I could buy my card from I would go to that originization and buy it! I am currently Tech 1 and have worked extremely hard to pass both my Fundamentals and my Tech 1, and am very proud of both certifications, that I actually earned, and it has only made be a better diver in the water. Have the Navy Seals lowered their standards because it is tough to get in?? Do the colleges across the nation lower their standards because it is too tough to gain PHD level?? I have seen many College Prep classes out there. Why not have a diver with a higher skill level entering class? or why not have the diver come through a very intense class, provisional out, go home and work their butt of practicing the new skills taught, and come back and nail it, as I did. When I did take my Tech 1 course, having Fundamentals as tough as it is, I was able to get through Tech 1 and enjoy my expirence, and so did our instructor, because he was able to teach us the Tech 1 skills and not have to run a 5 day fundamentals class because our skills were not up to par, and this does happen all the time in the Tech 1 class, even with the high standards of Fundamentals, another reason I feel Fundamentals should be tightened up a little more. Even at the Rec level.

As for diffrent skill levels in the same class, if the class is managed properly by the instructor, teams can be made accordingly, and students will get the appropriate training they paid for. I have seen many times in Fundamentals classes where the instructor has taken a little extra time with the more remedial students, and their skill level improved 200% from where they were when they began the class, and also in the same class, the higher skill levels were alowed to progress per UE standards and get the most out of their course. Breaking down Fundamentals classes by levels would never work as the demand is not high enough and I am not sure if the classes would fill. Besides this is also a team training (as is listed on your web-page, steve) and the better divers need to step up to help the lesser divers move through the class, as team skills are a criteria on the final evaluation of all GUE courses.

Steve, I notice on your profile that you do not list any type of training, have you completed Fundamentals?

The Fundamamentals class has evolved from a Tech/Cave "Prep" class in itself, to what we have today, the class has grown by length and material, and as you call these just "basic skills" in you above post, I do not understand why you may think the course is too tough??


Chris

 

[Steve R]

........... I notice on your profile that you do not list any type of training, have you completed Fundamentals?

The Fundamamentals class has evolved from a Tech/Cave "Prep" class in itself, to what we have today, the class has grown by length and material, and as you call these just "basic skills" in you above post, I do not understand why you may think the course is too tough??


Chris

Fundies? What's that?

I thought they meant they were having some Fun Days, so I showed up.

You evidently didn't read much of what I said at all.

 

[Chris Sawallich]

Fundies? What's that?

I thought they meant they were having some Fun Days, so I showed up.

You evidently didn't read much of what I said at all.

Well, you definately answered my question as to if you have taken and or passed Fundamentals.

I now understand why there is discontent about changing the Fundamentals Course structure. I have also read everything you have said, but it didnt all come together untill now.

Chris

 

[Steve R]

you do realize I'm just kinda yankin' ya, right?

you're right there that I have seen enough discontent with students in that particular class. Given what they signed up for, they deserved better suited team-mates. It's the class that did that to them, the make-up of what is allowed I mean. It was always the same problems.

My class was fine, and we had no problems in my group of three. I just happened to get lucky.

Something like what RJack or Trace mentioned would be a better show. It really is that obvious.

 

[Chris Sawallich]

I do agree on some points Steve. I did have a tough time setting up my Tech 1 class, because I did not have a dedicated partner that I could take the course with. But with some dedication by my Instructor and myself and another student, I was paired up with somebody that was of equal skill level, if not even a little better, and we were able to complete the class, and have have alot of fun with it also.

On the Fundamentals level, I have seen students excel when paired up with two other students that were not quite at their level. I have seen one out of three pass, and I think it only makes all three better divers, as the better diver has to set it up, and the divers with the lower skill level have a model to shoot for. Also now after class, the one diver can lead the others thru practice and get them through the course, either at the Tech or Rec levels. And as a network of higher level divers grows in the area, it only gets easier, and promotes more training, and diving.

I guess my main feeling is the course does not need to be changed to be made easier, it just takes some serious dedication on the students part to make it work, I have been watching it grow in our area, although still in begining stages, it is growing, and more and more divers are passing their Fundamentals with aspirations of Cave and Tech in the near future. The aspects of divers helping divers in the class has brought alot of people together in our are, and has kept them together, and I do not see that happening with the basic Open Water or other courses, as much as I do with the GUE courses.


Chris

 

[Steve R]

I do agree on some points Steve. I did have a tough time setting up my Tech 1 class, because I did not have a dedicated partner that I could take the course with. But with some dedication by my Instructor and myself and another student, I was paired up with somebody that was of equal skill level, if not even a little better, and we were able to complete the class, and have have alot of fun with it also.

On the Fundamentals level, I have seen students excel when paired up with two other students that were not quite at their level. I have seen one out of three pass, and I think it only makes all three better divers, as the better diver has to set it up, and the divers with the lower skill level have a model to shoot for. Also now after class, the one diver can lead the others thru practice and get them through the course, either at the Tech or Rec levels. And as a network of higher level divers grows in the area, it only gets easier, and promotes more training, and diving.

I guess my main feeling is the course does not need to be changed to be made easier, it just takes some serious dedication on the students part to make it work, I have been watching it grow in our area, although still in begining stages, it is growing, and more and more divers are passing their Fundamentals with aspirations of Cave and Tech in the near future. The aspects of divers helping divers in the class has brought alot of people together in our are, and has kept them together, and I do not see that happening with the basic Open Water or other courses, as much as I do with the GUE courses.


Chris

no one ever said change it to make it easier.

With the new tec-dirf it has been made a little tougher for those aiming for that endorsement. I think we all agree that that is a good thing.

Now they could use it being separated a tad further in some measure to make the learning even better.

 

[Warren_L]

I do agree on some points Steve. I did have a tough time setting up my Tech 1 class, because I did not have a dedicated partner that I could take the course with. But with some dedication by my Instructor and myself and another student, I was paired up with somebody that was of equal skill level, if not even a little better, and we were able to complete the class, and have have alot of fun with it also.

This would have helped me in my Tech 1. In the end, it cost me a fair bit extra in time and money and frustration. However, sometimes it is not possible to have a dedicated buddy to take the course with and you have to take your chances.

 

[TSandM]

I don't think anybody's arguing to make it easier, not at all. I do think the argument that the time allotted for the class is not long enough to bring a lot of people up to a passing standard within that time is a very legitimate argument. And most of the reasons why it is the way it is are matters of logistics, related to a very small instructional staff and a limited demand for the class. It's how it is.

Anybody who takes it with a good attitude will come away with information that will allow them to practice and improve. Frankly, if I can pass Fundies within the six month window (and I did) anybody can do it, because I was a mess when I took the class. It is somewhat discouraging to take a class you know you haven't got an ice cube's chance of passing, but I understood it going in, and was prepared for the provisional and the practice. It's almost a built-in part of the process for most people.