fundies in the north east?

[TSandM]

or the program needs to be lengthened to allow for an acceptable pass rate within the time-line given.

I think this is true. And I think people like Ed Hayes realize it, which is why he's offering this pre-class. The problem with Fundies is the same problem that created Fundies. As Bob Sherwood told me the other night, GUE is an agency that's been entirely reverse engineered. It was begun as a way to bring technical divers up to speed with skills that would allow them to participate in the WKPP project dives. They found that the people coming to them weren't where they needed to be to reach WKPP standards with a little mentoring, so they created Cave 2. Same issue created Cave 1, and so on.

Unfortunately, the only way to ensure that people coming to Fundies would have good basic skills to breeze through the class would be to have a different sort of OW class, something GUE has contemplated and even worked on, but from my discussions with Bob, has tabled indefinitedly for many of the reasons that get brought up every time we discuss that class here.

So you're left with a class which is trying to take people from (all too often) no sense of neutral buoyancy, no concept of trim, no concept of team, and minimal communication skills, and teach them to do everything in midwater and stable, to learn new kicks, to learn to shoot a bag, and to carry out a team-oriented, timed ascent. Because, with an instructor cadre of less than 50 in the world, you often have someone flying in from elsewhere to give the class, you try to stuff it into a couple of evenings and a weekend of diving. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, and a lot depends on which students present themselves for the class.

I've argued from the time of my class that earlier is not always better for Fundies. I really don't think there's any point spending the money on the class unless you can hover quietly while you do the basic 5 skills. I think most people could achieve that without instruction. There's enough information about weighting and trim out there, and beyond that, it just takes practice. But having an instructor help you with that much of it would undoubtedly make it go faster and probably be more fun. It seems like this is what Ed is trying to do with his class, and I think it's laudable.

 

[rjack321]

From a diver POV, dropping $700.00USD+ between a pre-dir-f and a dir-f class just to learn basic buoyancy, trim, some team concepts, some basic gas management ideas is absolutely rediculous.

Yeah, but the BOW class was a bargain at $99!

(that's $95 now for you Canucks )

 

[Steve R]

I think this is true. And I think people like Ed Hayes realize it, which is why he's offering this pre-class. The problem with Fundies is the same problem that created Fundies. As Bob Sherwood told me the other night, GUE is an agency that's been entirely reverse engineered. It was begun as a way to bring technical divers up to speed with skills that would allow them to participate in the WKPP project dives. They found that the people coming to them weren't where they needed to be to reach WKPP standards with a little mentoring, so they created Cave 2. Same issue created Cave 1, and so on.

Unfortunately, the only way to ensure that people coming to Fundies would have good basic skills to breeze through the class would be to have a different sort of OW class, something GUE has contemplated and even worked on, but from my discussions with Bob, has tabled indefinitedly for many of the reasons that get brought up every time we discuss that class here.

So you're left with a class which is trying to take people from (all too often) no sense of neutral buoyancy, no concept of trim, no concept of team, and minimal communication skills, and teach them to do everything in midwater and stable, to learn new kicks, to learn to shoot a bag, and to carry out a team-oriented, timed ascent. Because, with an instructor cadre of less than 50 in the world, you often have someone flying in from elsewhere to give the class, you try to stuff it into a couple of evenings and a weekend of diving. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, and a lot depends on which students present themselves for the class.

I've argued from the time of my class that earlier is not always better for Fundies. I really don't think there's any point spending the money on the class unless you can hover quietly while you do the basic 5 skills. I think most people could achieve that without instruction. There's enough information about weighting and trim out there, and beyond that, it just takes practice. But having an instructor help you with that much of it would undoubtedly make it go faster and probably be more fun. It seems like this is what Ed is trying to do with his class, and I think it's laudable.

The idea of breezing through any class would mean that it is/was not necessary to do. You don't have to "ensure" anything but an appropriate amount of time to have your typical diver be reasonably assured of having a successful outcome. It's not like it's a real mystery to understand what a typical diver is like, and what their problems are.

The idea that you have no prerequisites, yet 'fail' more than half the students means there's a problem with the class in some way shape or form, that needs to be addressed.

Glad to see we're being open minded about this, but unfortunately this shows that there is possibly more yet to come before the class is properly positioned to offer what it does, to the students at a more appropriate time. I do think GUE is making headway with this if the last round of changes is any indication.

As another suggestion that I think is long overdue, partly because of this same issue, is that it would probably make a bit more sense to separate entirely the rec vs. tec classes, IF they're not going to tighten up what causes this disconnect to begin with.

Argue if you want to and I am sure someone will, but generally speaking, a diver in doubles has more basic skills and in-water presence given they typically have more time in, than a diver moist out of OW, which is about what is allowed as a prereq to dir-f.

So what you can have is a diver with 10 dives or less totally trashing the class and holding up the progression of the entire rest of the class. It's totally doing a severe disservice to divers who can at least 'dive' and just want to move ahead with what is on the agenda for the day.

This does happen, and I can tell you coming from the divers that 'get it', 'let's move on', it's a total waste of time for them, and is as frustrating as heck.

Heck, I'm all for what Ed is doing, and all I am really saying is that it seems as if Ed himself see's the problem with the GUE dir-f here as it currently stands.

 

[TSandM]

Well, there's the ideal, and there's pragmatic reality. Ideally, you'd separate the class, or try to group students of similar experience and ability. In reality, you have the guy in Taiwan, who's just trying to get together enough people to make it possible to fly in an instructor. I don't think he's going to be fussy about getting them all to have similar abilities before the class.

Since I sat right in the middle of my class (some people MUCH better than I was, some not as good), I know exactly what you are talking about when you say that having too broad a spectrum of students makes it frustrating for everybody (including the instructor, I suspect). But again, until the class is more readily available, that's what's going to have to happen in a lot of places.

Maybe the answer is not to change Fundies, but to upgrade the basic education people get in OW classes until they come out with a basis that, after forty or fifty dives, will make Fundies a passable ambition for them? (About as likely to happen as making Fundies a two week class that can bring everybody up to speed )

 

[Steve R]

Since the ABC agencies will never change their OW's, it's up to GUE to adapt their classes to reflect the current state of divers.

What would be more easily done (since you want reality)?

1 - getting ABC's to change

2 - sorting out what is supposed to be an initial fundamental class to more properly reflect rather obvious student issues.

GUE I don't find is into making excuses, so I don't think they should start now.

If you want reality, you need to know you are never going to change the ABC's. It's a non-starter and need not be dealt with further than that. A total red-herring. Let it go.

You have to fix it another way, as a responsible agency. The answer IS to change/adapt the fundamentals class in some way, and use the problems and the suggestions already given, as a very good starting point.

Or.....

Either that or accept what I guess Ed believes, in that you really DO need a pre-requisite to a dir-f, and stop stating that divers are good to go, "as is", and to "Do it right away".

You also need to accept that if you live in timbuktu, you may be SOL WRT GUE training.

Reality sucks sometimes.

 

[Warren_L]

Since I sat right in the middle of my class (some people MUCH better than I was, some not as good), I know exactly what you are talking about when you say that having too broad a spectrum of students makes it frustrating for everybody (including the instructor, I suspect). But again, until the class is more readily available, that's what's going to have to happen in a lot of places.

This is not just a problem with Fundies. My Tech 1 course was me and a fellow I'd never dove with before. And not to slight this fellow any, since he's a decent guy with a kind heart, but the reality was that his skill level wasn't up to scratch. At least to the level expected of someone taking Tech 1. And since it was only the two of us on the course, it was frustrating having to spend a lot of extra time working to get the team up to the expected skill level. I don't know what the issue was, really. Maybe it was too much time and not enough skills practise since his Fundies. I don't know. But in the end, the instructor did not allow him to finish which kind of left me in a lurch since it was not possible for me to continue by myself. I don't hold any bad feelings towards my Tech 1 buddy, as he tried his best, but this really shows that even with divers who are supposed to be at a certain skill level (as opposed to Fundies where there would presumably be much greater variability) there can be issues.

 

[Steve R]

Just reading Warren's post here, and felt I should interject something I may have missed prior.

I'm NOT stating the DIR-f is a train wreck, nor am I stating that every class will run without a hitch if it were improved.

Classes are as fluid and as diverse as the divers than fill the seats, and shiite just happens sometimes.

We just happen to be discussing some rather 'common' issues, and ways of possibly overcoming them.

I'm sure all of this has been tossed around the round table in GUE HQ for a long time now.

These guy's I have full faith know exactly what's going on, and have their divers best interest as their top priority.

When compared to the garbage ABC puts out, this is a nothing-burger IMO

 

[rjack321]

I had the same problem in Cave1. My buddy, despite DIRF, wasn't ready. Since his awareness was lacking I'm not sure it was a "fixable" issue no matter what the prequisites. However, it was obvious to my Cave1 instructor that I wasn't a total dufus and so I passed

Some people are not meant to be deco/technical divers or cave divers. Is it 50% of those enrolling in DIRF? I don't think so, maybe more like 10-20%. Those people should not pass regardless of what the class length is or includes.

GUE should either commit to training recreational divers in some fashion and/or define DIRF as strictly Tech1/Cave1 prep. The mixed jumble is hard to justify.

 

[RiverRat]

Took Ed's B1 class:
Well I gotta give credit where it's due. I think many of you that know me on this board know I'm a straight shooter. I may get into some heated debates. You may not agree with me but I'm straight up. I have to say I got a LOT out of Ed's class and I felt he was a thorough, intense Instructor with a true passion for diving. No bull****. You want to learn some real skills you can use, he'll teach you! Yes at times I could see some issues between divers with different skillsets, mindsets, experience or whatever but overall I think everyone in my class came away with some added skills and hopefully a yearning to be a better diver and to keep learning. Out of all the classes I've taken up to Divemaster this one had to be the most bang for the buck. I think I worked it out to like $10.00 an hour! C'mon! I now dive better, got my frog kicks and modified flutters down pretty well and have made a few more gear changes. I'm really wanting to take his B2 class but $ is an issue right now. But as soon as I can scrounge some cash I'm confident I'll learn some more stuff. With all the talk of crappy 2 day wonder certs I think Ed is doing a great job of making a difference. At least he's offering a way to make a big jump if you want to (in skills) without breaking the bank. Tired of typing but I thought he kicked ***!

 

[jefffalcone]

A few pages back Rainer suggested that I try to get in the water with Ed Hayes before I decide to take fundies. This seems like a great idea that would elliminate the issues that you guys are talking about. If the instructor dives with you before taking fundies, he can let you know if you are ready to have a worthwhile experience, or if not, he can let you know how to get to a point where you are ready. Rainer seemed to think that Ed wouldn't have a problem doing this. If instructors generally made a practice of diving with prospective fundies students before the class, I imagine few students would fail. I know this is asking a lot of instructors and logistically it might not be possible in all circumstances, but if you're going diving anyway, why not invite prospective students. It could save you both a headache in the long run.