"Full" Cave

[kensuf]

My God, ...I wonder if some people here realize there were actual cave divers here long before nitrox was "normal" and anyone know what a AN/DP class was.

Nothing wrong with slow progression, or solid training for good skills... sometimes It seems like we can get wrapped around the axle with this stuff.

On the whole, is there anyone who really thinks the quality of "Full Cave" cert divers produced today is far better than what came out of the 80s and early 90s?

Generally speaking, no I do not, but I will say that I think the quality of cave diver education in the North Florida area has gone up over the past three years as the guys currently teaching have "upped their game" quite a bit and others have moved on.

When reflecting on where cave diver education was "back in the old days" and where it is today, I believe that a big part of the difference is in the instructor pipeline. Back when the only agencies offering cave training were the NACD and NSS-CDS, the path to becoming an instructor involved doing multiple co-teaches with your sponsor, then doing multiple co-teaches with different instructors for each of the course levels.

* Cavern/Basic - 3 co-teaches with your sponsor, 3 external = 6 co-teaches with a minimum of 4 different instructors.

* Full Cave - 3 co-teaches with your sponsor, 3 external = 6 co-teaches with a minimum of 4 different instructors. Plus you had to already be a basic cave instructor for a year and have taught a minimum of either 3 & 3 or 6 & 6 cavern and basic courses on your own.

That slow progression while working with a large number of people should have given instructor candidates a wide and varied exposure to different teaching styles and skills. It is my belief that that exposure helped make well rounded instructors -- I know I feel like I benefited by working with guys like Bill Oestreich, Tyler Moon, Jarrod Jablonski, Edd Sorenson, Jim Wyatt, Lloyd Bailey (back in the 90s), Jon Bernot, etc.

Unfortunately, with the exception of the NSS-CDS, the path to becoming a cave instructor with other agencies is sometimes as quick as "assist with one class, take an instructor institute." There is even at least one agency that does not require a candidate to do a co-teach before you are eligible to become a cave instructor, that's just crazy.

 

[tbone1004]

@Caveeagle the problem with slow progression is the students and our society not emphasizing slow progression. My argument for changing the progression is to follow the students demands not what the old guard thinks it should be based on what it used to be. Would stop a LOT of standards violations at the intro level....

@rjack321 any CDS certified full cave diver had at least decompression training for reference. It's part of that course and the final exam has at least 4 problems for calculating deco schedules

 

[jerrwhy01]

What a disappointing day. I learned that I'm only 15/16ths of a cave diver and Ken's garage is still standing.

 

[rjack321]

@rjack321 any CDS certified full cave diver had at least decompression training for reference. It's part of that course and the final exam has at least 4 problems for calculating deco schedules

At least one agency allows deco on backgas for those not previously AN/DP I think

 

[Caveeagle]

At least one agency allows deco on backgas for those not previously AN/DP I think

It's been a while now, but I seem to remember using the "orange-aide" Navy tables for Dive planning/ backup and diving the Aladin-pro using 21% to 1/3rds at little river. Not a ton of deco, but that was pretty typical, just doing a few mins of an extended safety stop from back gas.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Then there are the NSS-CDS sponsors with videos clearly showing they cannot perform the kicks they say they are doing.

 

[Superlyte27]

Don't get me started.

 

[Germie]

Ok, I did my user full cave course in 1 week. In Thailand. And I do now sometimes same with students in France. Why? We don't have caves near us. I want to dive with the divers before going to France and they must have at least adv. nitrox. (not in standards, but I prefer divers to have that). Good divers can do it. Others go to intro to cave first, but most not, as intro is extremely limited if you follow 1/6 in doubles, it encourage to violate (not a law) the limits in the first dives already after certification (don't forget we have normally already technical divers that want to start cave diving, not the sportsdiver thats want to start doing caves). Cavern is mostly not teached here, people go mostly directly to intro to cave. We don't have real caverns here, or you have dived them completely in 10 minutes. Not worth to travel the 12 hours one way.

I really don't see why one place to cave dive is better than others, there are only some differents, but not that you cannot manage if you use your brains. I learned it in Thailand. Then did minediving in Belgium, extremely cold, but nice. Then went to France. I did my iantd ccr cave instructor course with Tom Mount. My first high flow cave dive was Little river and yes it has a strong flow, but it is still a cave. I did it and liked it. I have discussed the '1 week nothing to full cave course' with Tom also and yes, he agrees that good divers can do it.

 

[chrisch]

.. I have discussed the '1 week nothing to full cave course' with Tom also and yes, he agrees that good divers can do it.

I see no reason why a person cannot learn the skills and disciplines to dive caves in a week, particularly if they are already diving doubles, doing valve shut downs and are used to long hose deployment. There is not much that is "new" only the line work. Whether a person is then ready to dive at the required level is another matter. Individual divers are very different and the confined cave environment is a difficult and dangerous one. Whatever goes wrong you must deal with it, to panic is to drown.

I have been training in France in the wonderful caves there. We have dived the Lot and Doubs. There are some "easy" caves with plenty of space and nice white limestone that reflect the light. Very little silt. This is a forgiving environment. There is some gravel in the caves but nothing to get stressed about, the chances of zero vis are more or less nil.

For me this journey has been difficult and stressful. I really am not over keen on the tight spaces. A friend drowned in Source de Doubs and this venue always reminds me of that. In open water I am confident enough and reasonably well skilled when in practice. (Trimix cert). My wife is much more confident and more skilled in the cave environment. I love diving with her and enjoy our limited trips into the caves. Her progress has been much faster than mine. (although our friend's death also bothers her at that venue - silly but hey we are humans)

One great "crime" in diving is over confidence. Zero to full in a week is fine provided the person then realises s/he is still very much a beginner and still learning. It is fine if you keep your key skills (like shutdowns) up to date and well practised. I agree with you and Tom but I would qualify that by saying to be sure that the diver is not over confident at the end of it.

You only get to screw up once in a cave. It is the last thing you do. As Michael Conrad used to say in Hill Street Blues "let's be careful out there".

 

[Germie]

Go from the caves in France to one of the mines here and you will learn that a siltout can happen very easy. I try to do the 'Cunhac' cave in a course, as there is a jump that brings you into very low viz on the way back. It is just a short jump, but the bubbles will make silt from the top going down.

A good skilled diver in open water has to realise that in a cave that the way in is same length as way out. And some don't like this idea. I tell them before going to France. Even if trimix is not for everybody, same with cave diving.
If you have to learn diving doubles in a cave course, this is too late. Then it is and a new environment and new equipment. Learn diving doubles first, then go into the caves.