"Full" Cave

[rjack321]

The "problem" is that people outside of FL (or Mx) don't actually follow-up and end up as fully qualified cave divers. Look at how hard it is for some people to move past apprentice?

Unpacking something like stages and survey into 2 separate follow-up specialties leaves students with: 1) an inflated sense of what full cave actually is and 2) unprepared to learn more. I can't tell you the number of times someone has told me "I'm interested in your project and full cave but have never surveyed before" (stage use comes up less frequently but is also somehow a sticking point).

 

[JohnnyC]

"Meh, I already know how to do deco, I already know how to dive a stage. I have no interest in surveying or cartography, why should I want to take a course that adds those things that I either already know how to do, or have no desire to do that's ancillary to the actual skills designed to keep me safe in an austere environment?" That's exactly how that conversation goes.

I don't disagree that every cave diver should have knowledge of those things, but they're really not directly essential skills to surviving a cave dive, which is what the course is designed to teach. To be honest, I would hope that a diver would already come into the course with those skills. The fact that you can see plenty of cave on a set of doubles with zero deco obligation is proof enough that you can cave dive without needing a stage or O2. Is it less likely in Florida than in Mexico? Sure, but it's not like it's an impossibility. And if a diver is training in environments where a deco obligation is likely, they should already have those skills.

If the current progression encourages people to take their personal progression into cave diving slowly, I don't see it as being a bad thing. I certainly wouldn't compare it to something like "Underwater Fish Fellator" or whatever the latest money-making scheme is for the recreational agencies.

FWIW, my card just says "Cave Diver."

 

[PfcAJ]

Survey at least is pretty project specific.

Different projects have different aims and standards. A lot of mexico stuff creates VERY detailed maps but it takes forever. Try that mess in Tallahassee cave and you're going to be making sllooww progress. You can capture depth, distance, az, and maybe some sideway estimates very quickly and end up with a lot of useful information, though.

 

[kensuf]

I mostly agree, but don't always cover surveying.

Without opening up a "Florida versus Mexico" debate, I would like to add "managing high flow" to your list. Anyone completing full cave in Florida should have to deal with both flow and decompression diving and there is no reason to discuss decompression diving without also touching on accelerated deco.

I like to include staging in full cave because it's a very common practice but with a lot of misunderstanding about how to properly manage gas volumes. How many times have you heard someone diving a stage to half+2 but then diving to thirds in their back-gas?? I also like covering staging because it reinforces that adding gear increases task loading.

Survey is something I cover if the days are running smooth and there's time to do it. I'm not going to lose sleep if I skip it though.

 

[rjack321]

Survey at least is pretty project specific.

Different projects have different aims and standards. A lot of mexico stuff creates VERY detailed maps but it takes forever. Try that mess in Tallahassee cave and you're going to be making sllooww progress. You can capture depth, distance, az, and maybe some sideway estimates very quickly and end up with a lot of useful information, though.

They have the benefit of gas and NDLs lasting forever to go with their fancy maps!

 

[rjack321]

"Meh, I already know how to do deco, I already know how to dive a stage. I have no interest in surveying or cartography, why should I want to take a course that adds those things that I either already know how to do, or have no desire to do that's ancillary to the actual skills designed to keep me safe in an austere environment?" That's exactly how that conversation goes.

I don't disagree that every cave diver should have knowledge of those things, but they're really not directly essential skills to surviving a cave dive, which is what the course is designed to teach. To be honest, I would hope that a diver would already come into the course with those skills. The fact that you can see plenty of cave on a set of doubles with zero deco obligation is proof enough that you can cave dive without needing a stage or O2. Is it less likely in Florida than in Mexico? Sure, but it's not like it's an impossibility. And if a diver is training in environments where a deco obligation is likely, they should already have those skills.

If the current progression encourages people to take their personal progression into cave diving slowly, I don't see it as being a bad thing. I certainly wouldn't compare it to something like "Underwater Fish Fellator" or whatever the latest money-making scheme is for the recreational agencies.

FWIW, my card just says "Cave Diver."

I guess I assumed the "survival skills" are fundamentally taught at cavern and intro (aka cave1, whatever you call it). Running line, sharing gas, lights out, and lost lines, etc aren't really any different or harder at the "full level".

Full is making them well rounded, complete, ready for the world... And to me that includes complex navigation, smaller restrictions, stages, deco, and survey.

 

[kensuf]

I
Full is making them well rounded, complete, ready for the world... And to me that includes complex navigation, smaller restrictions, stages, deco, and survey.

And flow!

I have a friend that did all of his cave training in Mexico. His very first dive in Florida was at Manatee Springs, and not knowing any better, he entered the head spring. He hit thirds while he was tying into the gold line.

"If all Florida cave diving is like this, then oh boy am I in trouble..."

 

[LiteHedded]

And flow!

I have a friend that did all of his cave training in Mexico. His very first dive in Florida was at Manatee Springs, and not knowing any better, he entered the head spring. He hit thirds while he was tying into the gold line.

"If all Florida cave diving is like this, then oh boy am I in trouble..."

mexico cave cards should have an asterisk on them until proven otherwise

 

[rjack321]

And flow!

I have a friend that did all of his cave training in Mexico. His very first dive in Florida was at Manatee Springs, and not knowing any better, he entered the head spring. He hit thirds while he was tying into the gold line.

"If all Florida cave diving is like this, then oh boy am I in trouble..."

There are flowing systems in Mx, many of them are not that delicate so in theory could be used for training. But I cant think of one that is.

 

[Caveeagle]

My God, ...I wonder if some people here realize there were actual cave divers here long before nitrox was "normal" and anyone know what a AN/DP class was.

Nothing wrong with slow progression, or solid training for good skills... sometimes It seems like we can get wrapped around the axle with this stuff.

On the whole, is there anyone who really thinks the quality of "Full Cave" cert divers produced today is far better than what came out of the 80s and early 90s?