Frustration moving into/towards tech

[KevinNM]

At this point I'll probably just figure it out on my own and get feedback when I do my next course using them, it just seems like if almost every agency has a sidemount course, that it would only be logical to have a course to teach the other similar tech setup in doubles, yet it seems it's "kinda sorta maybe covered in some other classes... possibly".

Various agencies have different ideas of what a valve drill is and how long it’s going to take. It varies a lot. Make sure you are learning how to do it exactly how your agency expects it to be done, not like the agency that the guy on YouTube belongs to wants it done. And don’t do valve drills deep until you really have them ingrained. I had an instructor stop me from turning off all my gas at 20 feet. I would have figured it out and nothing bad would have happened, probably.

 

[jlcnuke]

I think if he took the class he’d learn to adjust it right so you don’t need any clips.

People almost universally start off with them too tight. Way too tight. The crotch strap is what snugs everything up. My straps nearly slide off on their own till I buckle up with the crotch strap.

And in any case, of what matter is a pass if you’re only there to learn the fundamental skills with no intention of moving on to GUEs cave or tech curriculum?

Your cup is still full.

He literally had 90% of the muscle removed by the doctor in his arm during the surgery to remove his cancer. Unclipping a strap works for him, finding a way to pretend he has no disability doesn't.

 

[jlcnuke]

yeah.. that’s just one thing. I was trained to dive a Hogarthian doubles rig back well before I ever heard of GUE or DIR. When I dive BM doubles, you have to look hard to see where I break form from some of my GUE buddies. I like my Dive Rite deluxe harness with the clip off shoulders. Sometimes i dive a handheld primary instead of a corded can light. And sometimes I clip my SPG up on a shoulder D ring instead of on my waist. And.. are you sitting? My poseidon regs have a 9’ hose instead of 7’..

...but seriously.

are you already diving a streamlined single tank rig with a long hose and primary donate? If so, you path to BM doubles will be a lot easier.

Interesting concern you raise that a formal training regiment is less emphasized for BM doubles than sidemount, for example. I think it has a lot to do with there being much more of an established standard for setting up and diving doubles. Seriously... it’s fun to poke at the GUE folks, but there really is very little variation on ways to set up and dive doubles.

And almost any experienced backmount diver/ buddy could mentor you into shape within a couple dives.

My understanding of GUE has always been that there is "an accepted gear configuration and no other is accepted". That gear configuration isn't ideal for my dive partner, and I'm not comfortable with that rigid of a structure for training and certainly not for follow on diving. IF that isn't the agency's practice/methodology, they should make the ability to accept alternative configurations much more obvious, but that hasn't been what I've seen and as a result I'm not really interested in their practices.

 

[PfcAJ]

He literally had 90% of the muscle removed by the doctor in his arm during the surgery to remove his cancer. Unclipping a strap works for him, finding a way to pretend he has no disability doesn't.

You’ve already made up your mind.

Good luck.

 

[jlcnuke]

You’ve already made up your mind.

Good luck.

So are you saying that GUE standards are flexible enough to deal with different physical needs divers might have and how they might adjust their gear to make that work?

Or are you saying I'm correct in understanding that their standards are rigid and refuse to adjust for individual circumstances?

 

[PfcAJ]

So are you saying that GUE standards are flexible enough to deal with different physical needs divers might have and how they might adjust their gear to make that work?

Or are you saying I'm correct in understanding that their standards are rigid and refuse to adjust for individual circumstances?

I’m saying that you’ve determined the outcome already.

You can’t even entertain the idea that maybe a GUE instructor can help your friend adjust his harness so that he doesn’t need a quick release. You’ve made up your mind. It’s done. You know the result - it’s impossible.

So there’s no sense in continuing.

 

[jlcnuke]

I’m saying that you’ve determined the outcome already.

You can’t even entertain the idea that maybe a GUE instructor can help your friend adjust his harness so that he doesn’t need a quick release. You’ve made up your mind. It’s done. You know the result - it’s impossible.

So there’s no sense in continuing.

Great, you're 100% convinced about me and I'm 95% convinced about GUE. Sounds like we're not going to decide to work together. oh well.

 

[wstorms]

Keep in mind there is a difference between basic double skills and technical double skills. For the technical skills, definitely take a course and don't learn from Youtube exclusively (obviously you can look for inspiration). But for the more basic skills, there is a good argument to be made of getting comfortable with doubles in your own time.

As somebody said before, diving doubles recreational isn't that different from single tank backmount. The biggest difference is the bulk of the equipment. That will obviously effect your weighting, trim and buoyancy, so you need to relearn that. Luckily, this should all have been covered in your OWD training, so you already know how to do that.

The next big difference is probably the long hose. There is no reason you can't use a longhose on a recreational, single tank backmount dive (even with a jacket BCD) so why not get comfortable with it there? Donating (or even taking) a regulator in an OOG situation was covered in OWD, and again in your rescue training, so I have no doubt you can figure out the basics in order to do a recreational dive, and then learn the finesse in your technical class.

Just take it slow and make sure you do some dives with every substep you might take. It could be something like this:
- Jacket BCD, single tank, octo regs >>> BPW, single tank, octo regs (do a few dives till you are comfortable)
- BPW single tank octo regs >>> BPW single tank, longhose (again, do a few dives)
- BPW single tank longhose >>> BPW doubles (do some dives to hone in buoyancy, trim and weighting again)

Other stuff (like valve drills) is best left to the technical class, because that is something new compared to recreational diving. And for what it's worth, it should be covered in your tec course so no worries there.

 

[Caveeagle]

I see things sort of as I’d there is a wide rage in dive training.. on one end, you get training/certified on some basics, and then you are sort of left to figure sh1+ out through trial and error, or buddy/mentors.
...on the other end of the spectrum, you have training regiments that specify what D ring to use, and how Many seconds is appropriate for a valve shutdown drill.

I’m not saying that I am against GUE, or formal training for that matter, but I do think that at some point in advanced diving, you have to be prepared to experiment and learn some things on your own. I wall say again (before I get flamed). ...there are some damn fine instructors out there, who can really shorten your learning curve, and make you a safer diver. But, in “tech” diving at some point, I think you have to be confident enough to Do some self improvement.

it seems like it wasn’t all that long ago, before Michael Meduno invented the term “Technical Diving”.. that there wasn’t really a lot of formal training available. Cave divers were on the cutting edge, probably just out of necessity to try and curb the high fatality rates seen in the 70s and early 80s. Many wreck divers in that era sought out cave training, just because it was the only formal training for advanced, overhead diving, where “decompression” wasn’t considered a dirty word. Hell, companies like Dive Rite started out as cave divers making their own gear out of old inner tubes, and cut up street signs.

now it seems we have totally morphed into a store bought world where I need a cert card for everything. I actually had a diver this past weekend ask me. “Wow, did you make that neck bungee yourself”.

 

[ginti]

So are you saying that GUE standards are flexible enough to deal with different physical needs divers might have and how they might adjust their gear to make that work?

Hi jlcnuke, why don't you just send an email to some GUE instructors? It doesn't take so much time and their answers will tell you many more things about GUE than you can learn online