Frustration moving into/towards tech

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Nothing. However you meet prerequisite skills works.

I teach technical diving. Students come to me with a variety of skills and knowledge. Sometimes I know them before the class, and sometimes they have qualifications that clearly show they should be ready. If not, I get to know them a little and we do some diving. In many cases, I can see immediately that the student will have no trouble completing the course in a minimum amount of time. In other cases, I will see it will take some work, but they should be able to finish in a reasonable amount of time. On the other hand, in some cases I see that a lot needs to be done to get ready, and I let them know they should so some work before starting (and paying for) a class with me.

So what is a reasonable amount of time? The course standards identify a number of dives that must be completed, but that is a minimum. The real factor is the student's ability to meet the standards regardless of the number of dives it takes to meet them. In the early tech classes, for example, it is common for divers to take more than the minimum number of dives just to teach a satisfactory level with the valve shutdown drill. I anticipate that for most students, it will take a few extra dives and maybe a little extra practice on their own to get done, and I build that expectation into the class structure. I will not accept a student who is going to take too long to reach the class objectives.

The idea of "failing" a class left the vocabulary of almost all scuba instruction decades ago when almost all agencies adopted the philosophy of "mastery learning" that was originally conceived by Dr. Benjamin Bloom. I used to teach a variation of this concept in my role of training teachers, and I used it myself in the classroom for a many years. In traditional education, the teacher teaches students for a specific amount of time and then measures the student's performance against a course standard. In mastery education, the teacher teaches the student for however long it takes to meet the course standards. In traditional education, time is the standard, and performance is the variable. In mastery learning, performance is the standard, and time is the variable. In scuba, nearly all agencies now use a variation of mastery learning for their instructional approach, so the word "failure" has no real meaning; a student who has not met standards is simply still taking the course.

Fair enough. However, when you teach technical diving, that certification card allows for certain dives to be performed: decon, trimix, etc.. The problem I have with "mastery" is how most, with the exception of NASE and RAID, have subjective interpretations, which vary widely. Without objective specifications in concrete terms, the result is a wide variety of results. This is one thing that fundies addresses, in my opinion.

Fundies just allows T1 to be taken (which I am told is even better than fundies, skills wise).

I have never spoken to AG about the details of creating fundies (or essentials). However, the course, as I understand it, is to prepare students for technical diving, or get them as close to possible to that skillset. Was it that there were too many students requiring an "unreasonable" (which will be defined differently by different people) amount of time to be able to achieve the required proficiency to learn about decompression diving, handling emergencies that are only encountered in that environment, etc. etc.

Curious about your evaluation dives. Are those free?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Hire an instructor to get ready for the entry level course? Surely this course IS the preparation for the real course that lets you do deeper/longer diving?

I hate this idea that people need to be able to do the skills taught on a course before they start. Courses are not tests, they may contain tests but should teach the skills first.

It is for the case where the amount of improvement is so great, it is unreasonable to expect to achieve during a normal course. Or, they can go the provisional route. Nothing wrong with that. Many divers do it, put in the work, and go onto rec and tec passes and then to T1.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have never spoken to AG about the details of creating fundies (or essentials). However, the course, as I understand it, is to prepare students for technical diving, or get them as close to possible to that skillset. Was it that there were too many students requiring an "unreasonable" (which will be defined differently by different people) amount of time to be able to achieve the required proficiency to learn about decompression diving, handling emergencies that are only encountered in that environment, etc. etc.

My understanding was that the course was created specifically for cave diving. It was designed to deal with students who did not have the necessary prerequisite skills for cave training, and IMO it serves that purpose well.

Similarly, I know a cave instructor who had a student come to him, and he determined that the student was nowhere near ready for cave training. The student lived in our area, and he joined our tech group, which is how I learned about it. After some tech training, he went off and got cave trained and is now an avid cave diver.

I did not start cave training until I was pretty far into tech, and that initial training was very valuable. On my first day in cavern class, another potential student asked about the class while we were suiting up. While I was on my first dive, my instructor and I saw him in the water near us. He was nowhere near ready for cave training.

Curious about your evaluation dives. Are those free?

Yep, but the situation works well for this. The only place you can do true technical dives in our area is a deep sinkhole on private property in New Mexico, and the owner will not allow you to dive unless you are supervised by an approved instructor--like me. When there is no Covid-19 stopping me, I go there with both students and with others who are just looking for the dives. A potential student will show up for a dive weekend there, and I will see him or her diving one way or another.

As I said, though, some people come with certifications such that I will take them into the class without a checkout dive. I had one case where such a student was not as far along as I expected. It took longer than expected to get him through Tec 40, but he made it, and he eventually became full trimix, cave, etc. I was really surprised (floored, actually) when he was in the trimix class to learn that before he had come to the Tec 40 class, he had taken GUE Fundamentals. I don't know what his completion level was.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Yep, but the situation works well for this. The only place you can do true technical dives in our area is a deep sinkhole on private property in New Mexico, and the owner will not allow you to dive unless you are supervised by an approved instructor--like me. When there is no Covid-19 stopping me, I go there with both students and with others who are just looking for the dives. A potential student will show up for a dive weekend there, and I will see him or her diving one way or another.

As I said, though, some people come with certifications such that I will take them into the class without a checkout dive. I had one case where such a student was not as far along as I expected. It took longer than expected to get him through Tec 40, but he made it, and he eventually became full trimix, cave, etc. I was really surprised (floored, actually) when he was in the trimix class to learn that before he had come to the Tec 40 class, he had taken GUE Fundamentals. I don't know what his completion level was.

Not all instructors are willing to do evaluation dives for free. As I teach on the side (well, not during these Covid19 times), I can afford to. But I understand that some instructors are resistant to do so, as either they want to be diving for fun or teaching. That is their prerogative.

I don't know why you were floored a student had taken fundies. Was he a bad diver? (a lot of time could have lapsed) or he simply did not pursue the GUE route? I'm rethinking now to go back to a twinset and go through T1, despite being certified for normoxic trimix to 60 meters/200 feet. The reason is, what gaps in my knowledge/skillset exists? Dunning-Kruger. I don't know what I don't know.

 

[boulderjohn]

I don't know why you were floored a student had taken fundies.

As I said, his skills were pretty weak when he started the class, which was shortly after fundies.

 

[Celt]

If I was the OP I wouldn’t worry to much about learning tricks that may look good on paper, it’s a bit like teaching a hunting dog to roll over and stand on his back legs and the morning you go hunting he wouldn’t smell a pheasant if it came up and kicked him. I’d get myself a handy set of doubles and start using them

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

As I said, his skills were pretty weak when he started the class, which was shortly after fundies.

There can always be outliers. But these are exceptions.

 

[CptTightPants21]

Nothing. However you meet prerequisite skills works.

I teach technical diving. Students come to me with a variety of skills and knowledge. Sometimes I know them before the class, and sometimes they have qualifications that clearly show they should be ready. If not, I get to know them a little and we do some diving. In many cases, I can see immediately that the student will have no trouble completing the course in a minimum amount of time. In other cases, I will see it will take some work, but they should be able to finish in a reasonable amount of time. On the other hand, in some cases I see that a lot needs to be done to get ready, and I let them know they should so some work before starting (and paying for) a class with me.

So what is a reasonable amount of time? The course standards identify a number of dives that must be completed, but that is a minimum. The real factor is the student's ability to meet the standards regardless of the number of dives it takes to meet them. In the early tech classes, for example, it is common for divers to take more than the minimum number of dives just to teach a satisfactory level with the valve shutdown drill. I anticipate that for most students, it will take a few extra dives and maybe a little extra practice on their own to get done, and I build that expectation into the class structure. I will not accept a student who is going to take too long to reach the class objectives.

The idea of "failing" a class left the vocabulary of almost all scuba instruction decades ago when almost all agencies adopted the philosophy of "mastery learning" that was originally conceived by Dr. Benjamin Bloom. I used to teach a variation of this concept in my role of training teachers, and I used it myself in the classroom for a many years. In traditional education, the teacher teaches students for a specific amount of time and then measures the student's performance against a course standard. In mastery education, the teacher teaches the student for however long it takes to meet the course standards. In traditional education, time is the standard, and performance is the variable. In mastery learning, performance is the standard, and time is the variable. In scuba, nearly all agencies now use a variation of mastery learning for their instructional approach, so the word "failure" has no real meaning; a student who has not met standards is simply still taking the course.

This is all very reasonable, but I am confused on how this is any different than fundies? You talk about minimum number of days and then additional 'reasonable amount of time'--how is this different from a student taking a fundies class, getting the provisional and then coming back a week or a month later to doing their re-evaluation dive for the pass?

You talk about some students needing a lot of work? Are you saying you would not do a 1 or 2 day workshop with them to help get there skills up to par--similar to a Part 1 of fundies or GUE instructor coaching day? Fundies has the option of being split into Part 1 and Part 2 for people who needed more time to develop. If you are saying you will not teach a student who needs a great deal of work, that is fine, but you are in reality just pushing the development of that diver onto another instructor--GUE doesn't have a problem helping the student in that development.

So you are saying that al certified divers meet the prerequisites for the course. I will take your word for it.

In school systems, students are usually (but definitely not always) also well screened for prerequisite skills. In cases with high failure rates, the primary reason--by far--is a lack of motivation on the part of the student. Students who fail such classes are usually more interested in something other than school, frequently alcohol and drugs.

Well motivated students will almost always pass a well designed and well taught class in the allotted time. A high failure rate in classes populated by motivated students would be caused by some combination of poor course design, inadequate time, or poor instructional quality.

A little more than 50% of fundies students pass on the first go around, with 80% passing by the 2nd go around. Your argument is that there should be a pre-fundies fundies class? There is doubles primer, drysuit, or just plain coaching days which are 1 and 2 day courses, but many people reject these classes. Rather than do a two day random card they would prefer to do the full 4 or 5 day class with the mindset that even if they struggle it will be multiple days of learning. Many people have a mentality that attempting to climb the mountain they want to climb and 'not passing' on the firs try is better than successfully climbing a molehill.

 

[boulderjohn]

A little more than 50% of fundies students pass on the first go around, with 80% passing by the 2nd go around.

Genuine question: do they pay new each time?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Genuine question: do they pay new each time?

For a provisional pass, there is a 6 month timeframe to earn a rec pass that is free. If they cannot meet the performance requirements, they have to retake the course to earn a rec pass.

Once you get a rec pass, there is no time limit for getting a tec pass. And no fee.