Friend or foe

[lhalifax]

Dear all,

I wish to make public what happened recently on the Accidents & Incidents Forum.

I read here above "Feel free to give us your comments, remarks and feedback, on any policy / moderation topic that you think we need to hear about". Well, I hope it's the truth and I will be FREE to give such comments, remarks and feedback and not finding my post erased, given that I never used incorrect, insulting or inappropriate wording.

My concerns are about the so-called moderation which takes place on this board.

Short story: a staff member posted a comment regarding an accident for which I have first-hand information; I *politely* asked him not to post word-of-mouth comments, and I have been personally attacked. Moreover, I explained why I believed (and still believe) the post being in violation of the rules, publicly available. The chairman decided to back up his friend, staff member, and removed my post.

Details: please see the post here: 2 divers dead in Dominican Republic (Feb 9th)

The exact wording:

"Just a note from someone who knows both Edd and Mike....

They did a great job, going to the site with no funding, although a gofundme site was since setup to reimburse them for their expenses."

To which I just replied:

"False.
Please refrain from posting "from someone who knows..."

Thank you.
"

Now, I didn't greet the poster, nor I must do so. I was concise, but did not attack him, nor insulted him. I just noted it was a false sentence. As explained in a previous post, I do have first-hand informations on this accident.

The poster replied:

"What a nice, friendly person you are!

Was I in error about something? Perhaps you wold like to correct that error in that same nice, friendly manner.

I decided months ago that I would stop posting on ScubaBoard because of the creeping nastiness taking over. I decided I would post only i specific instances when I could be helpful. I have only done it a handful of times, but on almost every occasion, someone comes along almost immediately to remind me why I quit.

I read the story on Cave Divers Forum, where the nastiness is even worse. I guess there's no escaping it.
"

This is indeed, IMO, a personal attack. He wrote about personal qualities in terms of niceness, friendliness and hastiness. Please read again, with unbiased eyes, and put yourself in my place. Do you *really* believe it wasn't in fact a personal attack? Come on...

I reported the poster, explaining why I thought (and think) it violated numerous rules (Welcome to the Accidents and Incidents Forum; PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING!!!):

Someone has died or been injured. Please show the proper dignity, etiquette and refrain from any demeaning remarks. We discourage the family from reading these threads, but you can bet they still will. Let's be civil, sensitive and still remain relevant. This forum is only intended for learning and not assigning blame.​

Implying that the families dind't foot the bills is, in my opinion, a demeaning remark. It's not against the dead, it's against their families. Any difference?

Discussions should only be about the causes, theories and remedies for these accidents. Off topic posts or those with off topic comments may be removed without notice. (...)​

Please explain to me how footing the bills is related to : causes, theories and remedies for these accidents.

If you are presenting information from a source other than your own eyes and ears, please cite the source. Links are preferred.​

The post starts with the words "Just a note from someone who knows both Edd and Mike....".
So, it's NOT first-hand information. The poster was not PART of the agreements.

I reported the post, as per:

• Those who can not seem to follow these rules will have their access to this forum quickly revoked. As always, you should use the report button rather than bicker about possible infractions in the thread.

However, being the original poster a staff member, his colleague didn't find any violation. Strange enough.

The poster wrote me "Was I in error about something? Perhaps you wold like to correct that error in that same nice, friendly manner."

Well, that's what I did. Explaining why his post was in error. Both in the substance and regarding the adherence to the rules.

Strange enough, MY post was deleted by the Chairman, who explained "I don't see the violations you suggest. There were no insinuations about the families and John wrote the truth."

With all due respect, how can you tell "John wrote the truth."? I'm not saying that thwere is no crowdfounding ongoing. I'm saying that the sentence "They did a great job, going to the site with no funding" is false, and puts a shame on the families!

Still, the offending post (from a Staff member) is there, and my polite reply is gone.

Now, please explain me: how can't I think that on this board friends can do anything, and no defense is possbile?

And how is it possible that nobody, moderators, chariman, still answered my questions: how can the original post be deemed to comply with the rules? How can posting about a (supposed) lack of money be related to "causes, theories and remedies for these accidents.??

Am I angry? Yes.
I've been insulted enough.
Now, I need answers.

 

[tursiops]

The exact wording:

"Just a note from someone who knows both Edd and Mike....

They did a great job, going to the site with no funding, although a gofundme site was since setup to reimburse them for their expenses."

To which I just replied:

"False.
Please refrain from posting "from someone who knows..."

Thank you.
"

You seem to be overreacting to a very poor communication.
The poster said several things: (a) he knows Edd and Mike. (b) they did a great job. (c) they went to the site with no funding. (d) a gofundme site was since set up to reimburse them.

Your response? "False."
Do you mean all four things said were false? Or just one or two? Which?
If you mean (a) then how can you know that to be false?
If you mean (b) then you seem to be having a problem with the effort made by the recovery team.
Etc.
What did you mean by "false?"

The response to your "False" was that you seemed unfriendly. Perhaps because of (a) and (b) being called "false"?
I agree. Unless you can clarify what you meant by "False" you are clearly overreacting.

 

[Reku]

You probably should of clarified what you were talking about instead of just saying "false". One worded answers generally don't get received well at all. There's always a better way to communicate other than a one worded answer. I think that if you had fleshed out your answer a bit more you wouldn't feel the way you do and this current situation could of been avoided entirely.

 

[Caveeagle]

Are you really this upset just because it was suggested that the recovery divers were not supported monetarily?

Honestly, it never even occurred to me that anyone would ask or expect the families to pay for rescue or recovery efforts.

 

[RayfromTX]

There may be cultural differences related to what is expected or appropriate. In a discussion forum with a worldwide audience there will be conflicts and hurt feelings based on those differences. There will be other problems related to differences in how the English language is used even regionally within the same country. There is also just the way our own fears and emotions affect the way we hear things.

I am grateful for the fact that emotions play an important role in human interaction even if it leads to so many conflicts. It is the salt and pepper of our world. Without it the world would be a bit more robotic.

If we can make allowances for the things others say and recognize that we may not understand what they are trying to convey, we may have a better experience here. If we try to avoid things that may be mis-interpreted by those not exactly like us we may reduce the conflicts that arise but they will still happen, a lot. If we think we are being slighted or that something is being said that is incorrect we can ask for clarification rather than conclude that the worst thing possible is what was intended.

If we meet those we rub the wrong way online, we often find there is a fine person there that we can like if we get to know them.
We never know what is happening in a person's life that is affecting their patience and tolerance.
It is easy to take offense but takes a diplomatic set of skills to de-escalate a conflict.
We can try for empathy in ourselves but usually demanding it of others is ineffective.

I'm sorry if this seems like a lecture or as if I have it figured out. I don't. These are just survival tools I've gathered from doing it wrong so many times that it wore me out and I tried to figure out a better way. Still trying

 

[Graeme Fraser]

There may be cultural differences related to what is expected or appropriate. In a discussion forum with a worldwide audience there will be conflicts and hurt feelings based on those differences. There will be other problems related to differences in how the English language is used even regionally within the same country. There is also just the way our own fears and emotions affect the way we hear things.

I am grateful for the fact that emotions play an important role in human interaction even if it leads to so many conflicts. It is the salt and pepper of our world. Without it the world would be a bit more robotic.

If we can make allowances for the things others say and recognize that we may not understand what they are trying to convey, we may have a better experience here. If we try to avoid things that may be mis-interpreted by those not exactly like us we may reduce the conflicts that arise but they will still happen, a lot. If we think we are being slighted or that something is being said that is incorrect we can ask for clarification rather than conclude that the worst thing possible is what was intended.

If we meet those we rub the wrong way online, we often find there is a fine person there that we can like if we get to know them.
We never know what is happening in a person's life that is affecting their patience and tolerance.
It is easy to take offense but takes a diplomatic set of skills to de-escalate a conflict.
We can try for empathy in ourselves but usually demanding it of others is ineffective.

I'm sorry if this seems like a lecture or as if I have it figured out. I don't. These are just survival tools I've gathered from doing it wrong so many times that it wore me out and I tried to figure out a better way. Still trying.

Very well put. Your thoughtful and considered post demonstrates your skills as a moderator. I don't know if I would have the same patience, but will certainly try to remember your words before rushing to come to any conclusions in future.

 

[The Chairman]

Please refrain from posting "from someone who knows..."

This is the unfriendly part. Who are you to tell anyone that they should not post?

ScubaBoard staff has no way to vet facts of events happening so far away. However, we can and will moderate for tone. Be nice or your post may be edited or even deleted. People are wrong all the time. Correcting them nicely and respectfully is fine. Lashing out at them or asking them to stop posting is simply not friendly and is not going to be tolerated. Most people who come here are quite open to changing their mind if you nicely present us with the facts. Simply stating "False" does not give us any additional facts, nor does it add anything but rancor to an otherwise friendly and interesting thread. You seem to feel that John impugned the honor of the families by stating the recovery crew had "no funding". I haven't discussed this with John, but it's my guess that he was pointing out just how selfless the recovery team has been with their time and finances rather than trying to embarrass or demean the families. Do you feel, as a few others seem to, that the recovery team is not deserving of our honor and praise? Of course not. So, why not just nicely tell us that the families are contributing and doing all they can to defray the costs? Perhaps they are even paying these two gentlemen for their time? That would be great and we would love to read about that kind of support! In any event, keep it nice.

So yes, I removed your unreasonable demand that was causing the thread to devolve into rancor. I also removed the responses that your post engendered. The subject of that thread is the accident and the subsequent dangerous recovery of the deceased. Please remain on topic and keep it nice.

 

[lhalifax]

You seem to be overreacting to a very poor communication.
The poster said several things: (a) he knows Edd and Mike. (b) they did a great job. (c) they went to the site with no funding. (d) a gofundme site was since set up to reimburse them.

Your response? "False."
Do you mean all four things said were false? Or just one or two? Which?
If you mean (a) then how can you know that to be false?
If you mean (b) then you seem to be having a problem with the effort made by the recovery team.
Etc.
What did you mean by "false?"

The response to your "False" was that you seemed unfriendly. Perhaps because of (a) and (b) being called "false"?
I agree. Unless you can clarify what you meant by "False" you are clearly overreacting.

I see your point. But I believe that a) or b) are clearly out of the question. They indeed did a great job, nobody can deny it. Maybe it wasn't clear that I referred to the part c) "they went to the site with no funding.", but I clearly explaind this in the deleted post.

So, deleting the post which clarified my thoughts leaves to the reader (like you, in all honesty on your part, since you couldn't see the more lenghty reply) the false thought that I didn't explain. This is simply false.

I started this post about rules, not about the discussion per se, bu I will obviuosly clarify any detail. The problem about rules is that I strictly sticked to the rules (which I didn't write) and IMO the people who did write the rules didn't stick to them.

I still have to receive an answer to my question: how discussin footing the bills have something to do with:

• Discussions should only be about the causes, theories and remedies for these accidents. Off topic posts or those with off topic comments may be removed without notice. Condolences, including comments indicating surprise and indignation, should be kept to the Passings Forum, legal action should be kept to the Scuba Related Court Cases Forum and so forth.

It is still not clear to me. I also looked for some exotic meaning of the words "cause", "theory" and "remedy" but couldn't find a way to justify bashing on families beacause they didn't foot the bill, while they ideed DID cover the costs.

I sincerely thank you for taking your time to peacefully discuss this matter.

.LH.

 

[lhalifax]

You probably should of clarified what you were talking about instead of just saying "false". One worded answers generally don't get received well at all. There's always a better way to communicate other than a one worded answer. I think that if you had fleshed out your answer a bit more you wouldn't feel the way you do and this current situation could of been avoided entirely.

Thank you for your words.

I explained my thought in more detail in the now-deleted post.
That's why I think that moderators and Chairman took a bad decision: they are leaving an off-topic post and deleting my clarifying answer.

By off-topic I refer to the part where the poster implied that the families didn't foot the bills, by saying ""they went to the site with no funding.".

.LH.

 

[lhalifax]

Are you really this upset just because it was suggested that the recovery divers were not supported monetarily?

Honestly, it never even occurred to me that anyone would ask or expect the families to pay for rescue or recovery efforts.

Yes, I'm a bit upset about this exact part, because:

a) it's not related to "causes, theories and remedies for these accidents", like the rules explicity state
b) it's false. Families footed the bills and will continue to do so as soon as new bills will be presented.

Like you say, and I agree, "never even occurred to me that anyone would ask or expect the families to pay for rescue or recovery efforts.". But they, very honestly, did. And posting they didn't, while they did, and as yu say weren't even expected to, is insulting, IMO.

If you feel differently, pleasse explain. I started this post for a different reason (sticking to the rules), but I'm open to discuss the matter itself, as long as it's not deemed off-topic by the Moderators.

.LH.