Forum descriptions - Basic vs. Advanced

[The Chairman]

No, the real problem is the ego driven poster who feels the need to show that their standards are the only right ones and how everyone (including the agencies and industry) are dead wrong. Being overly blunt is a coward's way out of actually trying to discuss the issues in a reasonable manner. There's no need to beat people up to the point where they are afraid to share their problematic dives. The point here is not to see who can get away with being the harshest, but to educate people with less than adequate understandings of accepted diving practices. Often, they are clueless about their ignorance, and peeps jump right in telling them they "should get their money back", "should forget about diving", "are trolls" and of course "will surely die". These types of statements are BEYOND being blunt and are downright unfriendly. No wonder many of these users leave and then we lose the ability to teach them any further.

If you find yourself brimming with pride at how you "slammed that troll" or taught some user "a lesson", then you should look inwardly at how you are coming across. Also, if people constantly suggest that you are arrogant, that you feel you are "God's Gift to Diving" or similar wording, then you need to examine just HOW your are coming across. If you could care less about the feelings of others, well here's a clue: It shows in your postings and you are a part of the problem.

FWIW, it's funny how people are "OK" with being blunt with others and yet they surely don't like it when someone is blunt with them. IOW, I am sure that I ruffled some feathers here. It's easy to justify being unkind and downright snarky in your mind when you just want to PROVE that you are right. It's a lot tougher to show professionalism and patience to those who disagree with you, even on the most basic tenants.

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[redacted]

Is the biggest difference in the subject or in the nature of the permitted responses?

Who really cares about this invisible fence anyway?

 

[The Chairman]

Is the biggest difference in the subject or in the nature of the permitted responses?

Who really cares about this invisible fence anyway?

In concept (and spirit) the difference should be very slight when it comes to the nature of permitted responses. A few people see the extra civility afforded the green areas as an undue restriction on their vitriol. They also often see any area that is "non green" as a license to be as harsh as they want to be.

Missing from this reality is "mutual respect". Our forum is built upon it and requires it: it's a part of our ToS. It is not suspended in the non green zones.

"Basic" and "Advanced" reflect the industry norm as to content. Obviously, there will always be some overlap between the two, and that's OK. We try to leave it up to the OP to determine where it should go.

 

[Downing]

So have you/we/us reached any sort of consensus?

I'm happy to play by the rules whatever they might be. I like to treat everyone respectfully so it doesn't matter to me what's green or black.

 

[SC_Hoaty]

<snip>"Basic" and "Advanced" reflect the industry norm as to content. Obviously, there will always be some overlap between the two, and that's OK. We try to leave it up to the OP to determine where it should go.

The industry also call it Open Water and Advanced Open Water. The industry is responsible for the confusion over what "advanced" means. ScubaBoard can lead changes in the industry, right?

Back to this thought:

Sounds like we need a word other than Advanced in the forum name. And perhaps Basic Scuba should be renamed "Recreational Scuba."

Recreational scuba covers many advanced areas. Sounds more to me like they either to be more generalized or more specific. One way or the other. I read the thread subject when i check for new threads and don't care where it is located.

In reading the "special rules" for the Advanced Scuba Discussions forum, reference was made to "migrating from the traditional recreational diving envelope into more advanced areas...." Thus, I thought avoiding the word Basic might help eliminate some confusion.

Should we coin some new terms?

* Basic Recreational Scuba - similar to the existing Basic Scuba Discussions
* Rec-Tech Scuba - the transitional area between Basic Recreational Scuba and proper Technical Diving
(an alternate name could be Tecreational Scuba - would it fly?)
* Technical Diving Specialties

As you can see, I'm trying to avoid "Advanced" so the confusion with AOW is eliminated.

After we beat the terms to death in this thread, will the choice be obvious to the next diver to come along with a shiny new C card and a question?

Vigorous (but mutually respectful) discussion welcomed!

 

[The Chairman]

Should we coin some new terms?

While not impossible to do, renaming forums has it's own problems. RSS feeds, bookmarks and SEOs all go out the window. Those are three tools that have made us incredibly successful, so I approach name changes with the same passion for reinventing the wheel. Unless we see a significant benefit for doing it, I am loathe to change names in some Quixotic attempt to reform the industry.

This is not intended to inhibit discussion about changing the name, but more an attempt to set the bar really high. Come up with a name and description that knocks my socks off. Rec-Tech and Tecreational have underwhelmed me so far. That being said, something along the lines of "Beyond the Basics" would be an accurate portrayal of scope of the forum.

FWIW, I completely agree with you about "Advanced". It's use as a descriptor of Scuba skills and knowledge is useless. I had a rather long discussion with the head of an agency about this very topic recently. I suggested that they should utilize, BOW, OW II and OW III as course names and do completely away with AOW. They could state that their OW II is equivalent to everyone else's AOW to avoid confusion. I have yet to meet a newly minted "AOW" diver that was truly advanced. Ironically, I have even met a few instructors that I would not consider advanced, except in ego and years.

 

[SC_Hoaty]

Well if changing names is more trouble than having Mods move threads around, then don't change the names.

Special forum rules or Please Read stickies will only solve the problem for folks who are really concerned about posting in the wrong place. The current thread that initiated this spun-off discussion is all the proof one needs that it will happen again, soon.

And considering that, this really isn't a site support issue. It is an issue of what is appropriate in Advanced Scuba, and might attract more attention over there.

 

[The Chairman]

Well if changing names is more trouble than having Mods move threads around, then don't change the names.

It appears that you missed my point. The name is easy enough to change, but is that what is needed? Does it outweigh the negatives that I outlined above?

The mods are thinking that an additional forum is needed: a Tech Prep forum as it were. This in itself has merit and your previous names might be suitable.

As I said in my previous post, eliminate "advanced" from the forum's name also has lots of merit. But we still need to give it a GREAT name that will overcome the obstacles cited and defy the ambiguity. We know what not to call it, what we don't have is that great name that ties it all together.

 

[Downing]

FWIW, I completely agree with you about "Advanced". It's use as a descriptor of Scuba skills and knowledge is useless. I had a rather long discussion with the head of an agency about this very topic recently. I suggested that they should utilize, BOW, OW II and OW III as course names and do completely away with AOW. They could state that their OW II is equivalent to everyone else's AOW to avoid confusion. I have yet to meet a newly minted "AOW" diver that was truly advanced. Ironically, I have even met a few instructors that I would not consider advanced, except in ego and years.

The problem of course is that "BOW, OWII and OWIII" have very little sex appeal compared to "OW, AOW and MSD."

I'm glad to hear it would be difficult to rename the forums. I like them just the way they are. As SC said, just have the Mods move the thread if need be. This really doesn't come up that often, does it? The only suggestion I would make is that instead of a Mod post that says "This thread moved to the XYZ Forum where it should have been posted in the first place," the Mod say something like "R2D2, I'm moving your thread to XYZ Forum because that's where we discuss blah, blah, blah." You know, just a little more personable.

I think perhaps Mods sometimes forget that their Mod posts often sound like a b*tch slap by the hand of God to us mere mortals, especially the newer members who are more prone to make this kind of mistake.

 

[SC_Hoaty]

It appears that you missed my point. The name is easy enough to change, but is that what is needed? Does it outweigh the negatives that I outlined above?

The mods are thinking that an additional forum is needed: a Tech Prep forum as it were. This in itself has merit and your previous names might be suitable.

As I said in my previous post, eliminate "advanced" from the forum's name also has lots of merit. But we still need to give it a GREAT name that will overcome the obstacles cited and defy the ambiguity. We know what not to call it, what we don't have is that great name that ties it all together.

I don't think I missed your point, or else I have missed it again!

You outlined several negatives (it is more than just the programming time of delete this and add that). I stated that "IF changing names was MORE TROUBLE (see the relative weighting that you alone can do?) than having Mods move threads around (the current solution), then don't change names." Have I missed it again?

Is a name change needed? You tell me. I doubt this is the first time someone has confused Advanced Scuba with "anything beyind Open Water." The cost of dealing with that confusion is the variable that you know, and I don't.

If the Mods think a Tech Prep forum is needed, what would SB do with the current Advanced Scuba Discussions? Freeze it for archive purposes? Move threads and incur the expenses you aluded to? All these play into the decision.

And while you agreed with me about the confusion over "Advanced" you did state that you wanted to "set the bar really high" before you would change a forum name.

What did I get wrong?