FL Cavern instructor

[uncfnp]

Best to train in as many systems as possible. Classes done only at Ginnie Springs do the student a disservice, imo.

At the moment, only Manatee and Ginnie are divable. Now is not a good time since so many systems are blown out do to all the rains.

Thanks PfcAJ, I'm in no hurry. In fact, I have to schedule time off from work months ahead of time. So do these blowouts tend to happen at certain times of the year and would it likely "blow out" my scheduled course or would alternate sites be available? And since I could not care less what agency, what do you guys recommend as the best entry choice for a diver just exploring her options? Or like other courses, is it really just about the instructor?

 

[B Lo]

So my asking for a cavern instructor who "meets or exceeds all established training standards for NSS-CDS and/or IANTD" suggests that I'm starting to fit the profile of someone who has an attitude of not needing cave training? I fail to see how but I suppose if you think it somehow fits the bill, I'm supposed to just agree with you without questioning.

A diver who doesn't ask questions when he fails to understand the logic behind a comment is simply a parrot who will quite likely be unable to respond appropriately when critical reasoning is required.

The only thing I agree with, in your post, is that I don't need cave instruction, as I don't plan on going past sight of the entrance to a cavern. If and when I choose to do that, I'll be sure I'm properly equipped and trained.

You are fairly close on your second point. I truly don't care for the unfounded, illogical, and indefensible opinions of folks who I do not select for instruction and who prove to me that they have been indoctrinated to recite unsupported nonsense. I will listen to the individual I select to train me and I will respect his or her instruction absent extenuating circumstances (e.g., I see the instructor chewing on a manatee during a dive). As for Joe Blow on the internet, I will listen if he or she strikes me as having a worthwhile opinion. You're welcome to view it differently.

You would be absolutely amazed at how many people pass through Scuba Board either with an attitude of "I don't need cave training" or "I don't need to listen to what people say about training."

I'm not saying you are either of these but this is exactly how epic threads become epic. We've seen this time and time again from similar posters.

To be quite honest you are starting to fit the profile and you are getting the sort of responses I expect. Again, not a knock. Just being honest.

 

[The Chairman]

B Lo,

take a deep breath. These guys accusing you of having a bad attitude will affect your training how much? Zilch, nada and squat. The only person you have to impress is your instructor.

You, and you alone know your inner demons, if any. You and you alone are responsible for your dive. Trying to reason with unreasonable people is an exercise in futility. You've been given a number of great instructors, so start there and tell us who you finally went with.

 

[PfcAJ]

Thanks PfcAJ, I'm in no hurry. In fact, I have to schedule time off from work months ahead of time. So do these blowouts tend to happen at certain times of the year and would it likely "blow out" my scheduled course or would alternate sites be available? And since I could not care less what agency, what do you guys recommend as the best entry choice for a diver just exploring her options? Or like other courses, is it really just about the instructor?

Summer months are generally wetter, but the weather has been screwy lately. I'd say the current level of flooding is uncommon.

I don't think its 'just' the instructor. Its no secret on here that I'm a big fan of the GUE training model, starting with Fundamentals and getting that stuff dialed in before you ever go into the cave environment. Doug Mudry is a good choice in High Springs. David Rhea is a damn good cave instructor.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

I really don't get why some of you are going after this guy, just like i don't get why he is so afraid that Jim is judging him.

To recap, someone says they want to find a good instructor. Instructors are recommended. One instructor has a comment on his personal website about people with a bad attitude failing. Poster takes issue with this because he thinks it is a subjective measure of someone's personality, unrelated to diving performance.

From that misunderstanding, you have some people trying to explain that it's a silly misunderstanding, and another group that somehow took this to mean that he is trying to cut corners and suggesting that he'll be a bad diver, even though he is still asking for good instructors who will make sure he is safe. For some reason, poster feels compelled to tell us that many people are anxious to teach him.

We even have some people telling him to avoid a zero to hero course, when he only wants to do a cavern cert!

Now it's like a bunch of people all yelling their opinions at each other, when in fact, we all pretty much agree. The poster wants a great instructor, and we want everyone to get great instruction.

B Lo, did you even take 5 minutes to call Jim and ask him what he meant by attitude? Or are you just making assumptions and extrapolating?

I really think we are just talking about cave diving safety attitude, not any other types of attitude. There are some people in diving with real oddball personalities and attitudes towards any manner of things, but as long as they have a safety minded attitude in and under water, then it's all good. And if that's all the instructor is measuring when he says attitude, then why the hoopla? Jim is an excellent instructor, I hate to see you write him off because you and he were speaking on different wavelengths about the attitude of a student.

 

[B Lo]

Thanks for the message, NetDoc. While I am happy to PM you with who I end up training with, I am concerned he or she will end up chloroformed, chopped into tiny pieces, and fed to pigs if I mention his or her name on this thread. Some folks seem to be frothing at the mouth to find something to stick their pitchforks into. I don't necessarily understand what's struck such a nerve but, regardless, I stand by my opinion. There are ways to convince people they're wrong and I've not seen any of them in the vast majority of the posts I've bothered replying to.

B Lo,

take a deep breath. These guys accusing you of having a bad attitude will affect your training how much? Zilch, nada and squat. The only person you have to impress is your instructor.

You, and you alone know your inner demons, if any. You and you alone are responsible for your dive. Trying to reason with unreasonable people is an exercise in futility. You've been given a number of great instructors, so start there and tell us who you finally went with.

While I appreciate some understanding, I suggest you may wish to change your post to be less defensive of me, lest you be subject to the witch hunt yourself. I don't mean that to be sarcastic; I am concerned with the crowd we've got skulking around here. Much to the chagrin of several posters, I can hold my own against those looking to be nasty. Although, I am happy to see a public acknowledgement that I've done little to nothing to suggest that I'm a card collecting, corner cutting, dangerous lunatic.

I freely admit that I haven't called up Jim. I'll also openly state that I won't be calling him. I acknowledge now, as I did previously, that I may be completely wrong with regard to what he may have intended and I've never said he was anything other than a stellar instructor. While I certainly don't wish him ill, for several reasons, he's simply not the instructor for me. Similarly, there are other folks who have solid reputations who I also wouldn't use, not because they aren't good instructors, but because I don't feel we'd be a good match.

I really don't get why some of you are going after this guy, just like i don't get why he is so afraid that Jim is judging him.

To recap, someone says they want to find a good instructor. Instructors are recommended. One instructor has a comment on his personal website about people with a bad attitude failing. Poster takes issue with this because he thinks it is a subjective measure of someone's personality, unrelated to diving performance.

From that misunderstanding, you have some people trying to explain that it's a silly misunderstanding, and another group that somehow took this to mean that he is trying to cut corners and suggesting that he'll be a bad diver, even though he is still asking for good instructors who will make sure he is safe. For some reason, poster feels compelled to tell us that many people are anxious to teach him.

We even have some people telling him to avoid a zero to hero course, when he only wants to do a cavern cert!

Now it's like a bunch of people all yelling their opinions at each other, when in fact, we all pretty much agree. The poster wants a great instructor, and we want everyone to get great instruction.

B Lo, did you even take 5 minutes to call Jim and ask him what he meant by attitude? Or are you just making assumptions and extrapolating?

I really think we are just talking about cave diving safety attitude, not any other types of attitude. There are some people in diving with real oddball personalities and attitudes towards any manner of things, but as long as they have a safety minded attitude in and under water, then it's all good. And if that's all the instructor is measuring when he says attitude, then why the hoopla? Jim is an excellent instructor, I hate to see you write him off because you and he were speaking on different wavelengths about the attitude of a student.

 

[Omisson]

This is sure to be a heated topic but I'll go for it anyway. I'm looking for a cavern instructor in Florida to train a total of 2 or 3 people in a class. I expect to spend around $400 each for the training plus site access fees and gear costs to ensure my setup is appropriate for the course. If it's a bit more than $400, that's fine, as I would prefer the eventual certification has a value.

I am looking for someone who (#1) isn't full of himself or herself and who (#2) meets or exceeds all established training standards for NSS-CDS and/or IANTD. If he or she also certifies PADI Cavern (in addition to NSS-CDS and/or IANTD), that would be a little plus. I'd prefer to get NSS-CDS or IANTD and PADI certified. Respectfully, I would prefer not to elaborate on why I'd like the PADI certification in addition to either the NSS-CDS or IANTD certification.

SCUBA instructors tend to be worth a lot or worth extremely little. There is generally no middle ground. I've had excellent instruction and worthless instruction. I'd prefer to get quality instruction here on out and would like to select the instructor rather than the shop.

Jim Wyatt - NSS CDS training director, PADI and NACD, IANTD instructor. High Springs Area.

Serious, thorough, and in the price range.

Oh yes... And he's a great instructor.

Tom Johnson, TDI, NSS also a great instructor but in Orlando area. In price range, thorough and funny.

My 2 cents.


Dan-O

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[karstdvr]

B Lo-disseminate through the good advice and BS,find an instructor,then most importantly have fun while learning a new skill set.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Thanks for all the good words said about me, I appreciate it.

Reading through this thread compelled me to cite examples of attitude issues that I am referring to.

A few years ago two men were planning a dive at Little River on DPV's. One man was certified as an "Intro to cave" diver, which is half way through the cave diver training program. Of course he was not certified to dive the DPV into a cave. He commented, before his death that he did not need to pay some cave instructor to teach him the rest of the cave diving program and furthermore there was nothing for him to learn in a DPV class.

He made the dive and died that same day and died because he did the dive wrong. He did the dive wrong because he did not know what he did not know. He had it wired in his mind, this attitude caused his death.

This is the type attitude I refer to. During day one of my cavern/cave classroom I discuss the psychological aspects of cave diving. One of the points made is about attitude, developing a safe attitude, not diving beyond your training.

While this may seem extreme I could cite several more examples and cases of others dying in caves because of poor attitudes that spawned dangerous practices.

Having completed graduate studies in Clinical psychology in another lifetime I enjoy the occasional challenge of changing a students' bad attitude by shaping his/her thought processes rather than threatening failure.

You can lead a horse to water, and you CAN make him think.

 

[The Chairman]

While I appreciate some understanding, I suggest you may wish to change your post to be less defensive of me, lest you be subject to the witch hunt yourself. I don't mean that to be sarcastic; I am concerned with the crowd we've got skulking around here. Much to the chagrin of several posters, I can hold my own against those looking to be nasty. Although, I am happy to see a public acknowledgement that I've done little to nothing to suggest that I'm a card collecting, corner cutting, dangerous lunatic.

Dude, by and large I am completely immune to the antics of our cyber troglodytes mostly because I own their cave. Consider me the voice of reason amidst the clamor and the angst. They're not bad people, really. They're just very passionate about caves and cave training. Who knows, by the end of your training and after you have killed yourself a few times, (guided by an instructor, so you won't really die), you might find yourself just as passionate, or least find yourself getting there.

Cave training has simply been the most intensive, rigorous and challenging endeavor I have ever embarked upon. It alters your way of thinking into spotting dangers everywhere. You could actually consider it a paranoia save for the simple fact that the cave is out to kill you. She don't mess around and she's very deceptive about the whole affair. If you want to simply master the skills, then stick to open water. If you want to survive the cave then your attitude becomes as important as those nascent skills. While a few of my brothers and sisters are assholes naturally, often the caves turn them into one in spite of their normally cheerful disposition. Think upon their words. They aren't meant to rile you, but rather to make you think. Part of your training is to make reasoned rather than emotional decisions when things don't go your way. You may consider this a part of your training regimen if it helps.