First Regulator Use after Service
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fisherdvm
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After my son used a regulator that was just rebuilt, it made an explosive pop during regulator exchange drill, fortunately, in the pool and in 4 ft of water.
It did this consistenly.
Took it back, and the technician said it worked fine with "atmospheric" testing. He said he took it apart, turn this spring "backward", and told me to try it.
It worked fine after the second reassembly.
That's why I would not trust a newly "rebuilt" regulator.
It did this consistenly.
Took it back, and the technician said it worked fine with "atmospheric" testing. He said he took it apart, turn this spring "backward", and told me to try it.
It worked fine after the second reassembly.
That's why I would not trust a newly "rebuilt" regulator.
OP
As the OP my thoughts were any of the above. Anything beyond an IP check has the potential to create an intended / unanticipated problem.
Since for many the argument against frequent regulator service is that too often a serviced regulator needs post service rework understanding how others mitigate this risk is the intent of the thread.
Pete
BTW, I am moving this to the regulator forum, my intent was to be with the current service interval thread and I misread it's location when starting this thread.
Most companies have annual service parts kits that include the parts recommended for annual replacement. An annual service generally includes the complete dissasembly and cleaning of the reg followed by inspection of the parts, replacement of any worn parts or o-rings and reassembly and relubrication of the regulator. Generally all of the dynamic o-rings the ones that have parts moving against the surface of the o-ring) and the seats are replaced.
The reg is then tested in several ways to ensure proper reassembly and functioning. Some of those tests can be done by the consumer as well:
1. A vaccuum test is done by attempting to inhale through the reg while either the dust cover is tightly in place or while the reg is connected to a tank and not yet pressurized. You should not get any air at all through the reg and you should hear the lever and diaphragm move smoothly and freely. In some cases when sucking really hard, you may get a very slight amount of air and that is normal in some regulators. If you get any air when inhaling normally, you have a potential problem.
That may be due to a hole in the diaphragm, an improperly seated diaphragm or exhaust valve, a hole or crack in the mouthpiece, a crack in the case of the regulator or a bad o-ring sealing one of the fittings in the case.
2. Pressurize the reg, cycle the purge on each second stage a couple times (lightly - no huge blast of air is required). The purge should begin releasing air after only a slight depression. If significant depression of the purge is required the second stage is improperly adjusted and should not be used as the working range of the valve and the flow rate of the second stage will be restricted and may not deliver enough gas at depth or under high workloads.
3. Check for leaking seats. Listen for any indications of a slight freeflow in each second stage. If a leak occurs immediately it is probably a second stage adjustment issue. Alternatively it could be a very leaky high pressure seat. If the leak occurs a few seconds to a few minutes after the last purge or inhalation, the HP seat is most likely leaking. This causes the intermediate pressure to rise over the course of a few seconds to a few minutes until the excess pressure is vented through one of the second stages.
4. Check for leaking o-rings. Turn the tank valve off and note the pressure on the spg. Come back a few minutes later and again note the pressure. No drop at all is excellent. Some drop is normal as some very minor leakage past the low pressure seats that is too quiet to hear is common, but excessive drop in pressure (ie: a thousand psi or so over a few minutes) may indicate a leaking o-ring in one of the connections, port plugs or high pressure spool. If this occurs, a bubble check in a suitably sized body of water will isolate where the leak is at. A bubble check by you and your buddy at the beginning of each dive is always a good idea and will disclose leaks in the reg as well as a leak in the burst disc or neck o-ring of the tank.
In fact all of the above checks make good pre-dive checks and only tank a few minutes while gearing up for the dive. Failing any of those checks will also let you know that your reg needs service - in most cases before you encounter a serious problem.
IP Gauge checks
An Intermediate Pressure gauge (IP gauge) can tell you a lot about how your reg is functioning. You can make one with a $10.00 hardware store variety compressor gauge found in the air compressor section of a hardware store or Wal-mart. You want a gauge with a range of 0 to 200 or 250 psi. You then screw this onto a 1/4 NPT to 1/4 NPT nipple (the shortest you can find - usually in the plumbing section of the hardware store - in either brass or cast iron is fine.) and then screw a 1/4 NPT to BC quick disconnect fitting onto the other end of the 1/4 NPT nipple. THe 1/4 NPT to QD fitting can be found at a well stocked dive store, or ordered by your shop or ordered on-line from several on-line sources. Use teflon tape on the joints betwene the nipple, pressure gauge and QD fitting. The whole thing should cost you less than $20.00. Alternatively you can buy one ready made - there is usually one or two on e-bay at any given time and Leisure-pro probably sells them as well.
The gauge simply plugs into the BC inflator hose on your reg. The needle movement tells you as much as the maximum reading of the needle. When you pressurize the reg, the needle should quickly rise (the "initial swing") to a point very close to the final reading. What happens next is important. In most first stages there should be no "creep" and the pressure should remain where it was after the initial swing. In some models, a creep of 2 to 5 psi over the first few seconds is acceptable. Any creep at all after about 30 seconds is bad and a slow and continuous creep indicates a leaking high pressure seat if you wait long enough, the pressure will probably rise to the point where it begins to vents through one of the first stages.
If the IP is stable, it should be in a range between 120 and 145 psi. for most regulators. High IP is bad - unless you own some Poseiden models. Low IP is also bad. If the first stage is balanced the IP should be fairly stable (+/- 5 psi) between a full tank (3000 psi) and a near empty one (300-500 psi). If the first stage is unbalanced, a change in IP of 20-25 psi bewteen 3000 and 300 psi is normal. The important thing here is that the IP be near the top of the range at 3000 psi to ensure it is still in the acceptable range at low tank pressures.
When you inhale the IP will drop and then immediately swing back up when you stop. A 10 to 20 psi drop in IP is normal. Dropping below 100-120 psi is potentially a problem as is an drop in IP of more than about 20 psi. as it may indicate a restriction in the filter or valve or other problem with flow rate. A slow initial swing back to the maximum IP is also a sign of a potential restriction somewhere in the regulator or valve.
My experience is limited to servicing my own simple regs, but I was thinking the same thing, that most servicing errors would show themselves quickly.
Other servicing issues, such as adjusting "too close to the edge", might reveal themselves later in the first few dives as a tendency to free-flow.
My feeling is, for open-water diving, these issues only rise to a manageable inconvenience, and do not become a significant threat to safety. That's why I wouldn't bother doing a test dive.
I occasionally overlook the obvious, so I'll put this out there for anyone:
For an experienced diver, what are the the possible scenarios where recent regulator servicing errors or other regulator failure would cause a significant safety risk upon initial usage in open-water diving?
My feeling is these very rare issues would only create inconvenience, such as needing to abort a dive in a controlled fashion.
I've been wrong before, so I'm open-minded and always listening....
Dave C
Luis, you are correct and I am wrong. I apparently know nothing about quality science. It is also likely that I know little about regulator repair and testing. You are correct; a regulator facility cannot assure the quality of their work. This, unfortunately, has become the viewpoint in the scuba industry. The idiots in the average scuba store, who do regulator repair FOR A LIVING, without proper tools, without proper knowledge, and with any testing capability other than static cracking effort and IP lockup have made it so. Only diving a regulator will tell you if it works properly. I will defer to you guys on this subject.
Phil Ellis
FYI...I would hope ya'll take Phil's last post tongue in cheek...Phil actually knows a great deal about Quality Science...he was a direct student and traveled/lectured with Dr. Deeming. So he actually knows what he's talking about.....is he 100% right, of course not, no one is....but in this particular case he statistically, due to training and working with it every day would be correct more so than the average person.
R
redacted
Guest
My experience is limited to servicing my own simple regs, but I was thinking the same thing, that most servicing errors would show themselves quickly.
Other servicing issues, such as adjusting "too close to the edge", might reveal themselves later in the first few dives as a tendency to free-flow.
My feeling is, for open-water diving, these issues only rise to a manageable inconvenience, and do not become a significant threat to safety. That's why I wouldn't bother doing a test dive.
I occasionally overlook the obvious, so I'll put this out there for anyone:
For an experienced diver, what are the the possible scenarios where recent regulator servicing errors or other regulator failure would cause a significant safety risk upon initial usage in open-water diving?
My feeling is these very rare issues would only create inconvenience, such as needing to abort a dive in a controlled fashion.
I've been wrong before, so I'm open-minded and always listening....
Dave C
I'm not disagreeing with you. But "testing" a repair is a normal part of any good repair action on any item. Sometimes an "operationally realistic" test is not possible or practical. In those cases one may substitute other means of testing like Phill does in his shop or like NASA does with spacecraft. Sure, I'd take one of my freshly DIY serviced regs on a dive vacation and roll off the boat with it with no hesitation. I would have done all the non-diving checks and been confident it will work fine. I'd put the risk involved as extremely low. But I don't have to do that as a test dive is normally very easy to arrange in sunny central TX (pool and lake in my back yard) or I have a number of regs to choose from that have proven their performance in recent dives. So I'd probably take one of those. And from my dealings with Phil and Dive Sports (as well as some of the other larger service providers active on this board), I think I would treat his work the same as mine. Definately not so with the small shops I dealt with years ago that were my motivation for learning to DIY.
There was a thread in the last year where an Arizona shop serviced a customer's Zeagle regs that he then took to Cozumel. During a dive he noticed that the connection of the LP hose to his primary 2nd was loose. And he F%^&d
with it resulting in it disconnecting. All caught on tape. He and his buddy handled it well with the result being just an aborted dive. But that is the kind of problem that could easily get real serious if not handled well. Good learning experience.
Edit: To be clear, the risk that I am most concerned with is the risk of losing or aborting a dive, not any risk of suffering physical harm.
IMHO, the testing should be appropriate to what's at risk.
If the next "real" dive is just the local quarry, there's probably no need for a "test" of any sort. OTOH, if a critical piece of gear (not just regs) has been added or changed/fixed/adjusted, and I'm headed off to a week on a liveaboard then yeah, a little pool time is probably in order.
And besides, "hey, gotta make sure everything works OK" is a great excuse to go get wet!
Even "new" gear can be flawed. That goes for the "new" parts installed by a skilled, competent tech. The precautions we take should be commensurate with the risk involved. A free-flowing reg is probably not that big of a risk to a trained diver in a buddy situation, but to most of us the possibility of having to sit out for a week on a trip that we paid big bucks for certainly is a "risk".
If the next "real" dive is just the local quarry, there's probably no need for a "test" of any sort. OTOH, if a critical piece of gear (not just regs) has been added or changed/fixed/adjusted, and I'm headed off to a week on a liveaboard then yeah, a little pool time is probably in order.
And besides, "hey, gotta make sure everything works OK" is a great excuse to go get wet!
Even "new" gear can be flawed. That goes for the "new" parts installed by a skilled, competent tech. The precautions we take should be commensurate with the risk involved. A free-flowing reg is probably not that big of a risk to a trained diver in a buddy situation, but to most of us the possibility of having to sit out for a week on a trip that we paid big bucks for certainly is a "risk".
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