first experience with skill circuit

[Bubble Junky]

The only time a DM would be doing any similar type of briefing would be if they were conducting skin diving or snorkeling programs; they are not authorized to conduct anything above that level. Of course, DM briefings for dive sites or when they act as dive guides for certified divers are completely different than teaching situations.

SCUBA Reviews ?

---------- Post Merged at 12:19 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:15 PM ----------

It was implied that at the DM level, I should already know how to all of the skills and earn a "3" in each skill. Which means I could do the skill easily, just not demonstration quality.

When I took the DM course, the DMC had to do the mask remove/replace/clear skill first (outside of the skill circuit) and earn a "4", before the DMC could move on to the rest of the circuit. I earned a "4" and was told to go slower.

That "go slower" comment was the only coaching/instruction/assistance/demonstration/etc. that I received related to the skill circuit. From there, I did the skill circuit. Other DMC tht went through the skill circuit with this instructor have similar experiences.

Based on my experience, I am very glad that the new Instructor Manual specifically states that the instructor must demonstrate for the DMC first. I have the opinion that a DMC should have a "3" in each skill right out of the box without practice; however, I am also here to teach/mentor/assist them in their development.

So, you didn't receive any instruction on the importance of positioning ? For me this is a big aspect of learning demonstrations... Every student needs to be able to see every critical attribute of the skills... For example, during AAS use, the assistant needs to be placed on the correct side of the person conducting the demo. Also fin pivots (sorry, 'neutral buoyancy') have specific positionings, and for me so does reg recovery and a number of other skills...

If you go onto take an IDC and demonstrate in a manner that cannot be seen by all students then you get a '2' !!

 

[LaMissJude]

I think you may be blurring the line here between what a PADI DM is required to do and what an Instructor is required to do when handling OW students, because your checklist is basically the Instructor checklist for confined water training with OW students.

If the Instructor is using a Certified Assistant to demo the skill instead of doing it themselves, the briefing and all other aspects of describing the skill, how to do it, what is to be expected of the student u/w during the session, signals, positioning, etc. are all handled by the Instructor. This includes indicating that the DM will be performing the demonstration.

Under the direct supervision of the Instructor, the DM demos the skill. The DM then becomes the one watching the students while the Instructor evaluates each student as to their mastery of the skill. If mastery is not achieved, the Instructor can pass the student to the DM for practice, at which time the DM may be required to demo the skill (again). After sufficient practice the student is returned to the Instructor for re-evaluation of mastery.

The only time a DM would be doing any similar type of briefing would be if they were conducting skin diving or snorkeling programs; they are not authorized to conduct anything above that level. Of course, DM briefings for dive sites or when they act as dive guides for certified divers are completely different than teaching situations.

There are definitely a few situations where DMs have to be able to make briefing about skills...

What about Scuba Review?

When I understand that a DM is not an instructor and can not properly teach, I still believe that a good DM has to understand what is going on if he assists an Instructor during a course (including positionning of course), as well as being able to do a proper briefing (Scuba Reviews, or becoming a DSD leader, or answering questions from a student/guest, and give a professional opinion.)

Here in the Maldives, when a certified guest checks-in for the first dive of his holidays, if he can not provide a proof that he dived in the last 3 months, he has to do an orientation dive. This orientation dive includes some skills (mask clearing, regulator recovery, buoyancy control, out of air situation...) and DMs are conducting this dive. They have to make a proper briefing for this skills.

An instructor can teach, a DM can not, but he can refresh, answer questions and have knowledge. I don't think I'm blurring the line...

 

[tracydr]

When I did my skills for DMC, my instructor demonstrated each skill as he expected us to do them. We then did each skill. If it was not done to his satisfaction, we went back and did it again.
Any skill that was repeated, will also be repeated on another day to solidify the skill.
I fully anticipate demonstrating the skills while helping teach classes. In fact, I've been told that while helping with classes, I won't complete my DMC until I've demonstrated skills.
I've been expected to demo my skills at an instructor level from the beginning in order to pass.
Perhaps this is instructor dependent? I do plan to further my training to instructor level.

 

[DBailey]

So, you didn't receive any instruction on the importance of positioning ? For me this is a big aspect of learning demonstrations... Every student needs to be able to see every critical attribute of the skills... For example, during AAS use, the assistant needs to be placed on the correct side of the person conducting the demo. Also fin pivots (sorry, 'neutral buoyancy') have specific positionings, and for me so does reg recovery and a number of other skills...

If you go onto take an IDC and demonstrate in a manner that cannot be seen by all students then you get a '2' !!

At the DM level (and AI for that matter), no, I did not receive any information like that. It wasn't until the IDC that those aspects of the skill circuit were brought into the picture.

 

[SubMariner]

I couldn´t agree less.

If a DM can actually do a scuba refresher on it´s own, why shouldn´t he brief stuff? Or be able to explain stuff? This is such an "instructor factory PADI CDC" view of diving and pro education that gives me the creeps. It´s all about making a DM WANT to continue on to Instructor, he must feel the NEED. Goddam pyramid scheme. A DM should be able to brief, explain and evaluate, as well as give a professional opinion on the development of skills for a student. This is not to say that they should overview a class, but please cut it with the PADI CDC viewpoint of things. There is no need to sell further career enhancements here.

Your displeasure and disagreement with the PADI system is duly noted. By way of protest, you are certainly free to drop PADI MSDT from your profile & let your PADI professional status lapse. However, the fact remains that my post presents PADI standards while yours merely does your best impression of Angry Birds.

If you know of any professional dive agency that allows their divemasters to teach/evaluate uncertified students independent of an Instructor, I'd be interested in learning about them. BTW, you have conveniently forgotten to one minor detail about the Scuba Review: it is only done with CERTIFIED DIVERS.

 

[Crowley]

Given that this sort of thing was my whole life for two years...

Firstly - the DM and IDC skills are evaluated differently - overall - but the points awarded for the demonstration are pretty similar. At DM level, you just have to be able to demonstrate the skill - at IDC level you have to add a lot of chat about objectives and value and demonstrate your control of the situation. DMS are not allowed to "teach" skills to uncertified divers but they are expected to be able to assist with skill practice and development.

When teaching uncertified divers, the skill must always be demonstrated by an instructor first, and then the DM can assits - under the supervision of an instructor, but it is the instructor that makes the final decision as to whether or not a skill has been demonstrated adequately.

When I taught DM classes then I would perform a full skills circuit on day 1 - and I didn't expect anybody to get a perfect 5, but I did expect that everybody could get a 3 - 3 means you can do the skill like an open water student - i.e. if I ask you to hover for 30 seconds without flapping, I expect you can do that. It doesn't have to be full demonstration quality, but I expect the DM candidate should be able to hover for 30 seconds because they should have learned this in their OW course.
So - when an instructor asks DM candidates to perform a skills circuit without training - why not? Everything should be a level 3 - and *then* comes the training to turn the skill into a full demonstration score of 5 points.

When it comes to the IDC - we had practice skill sessions but if anybody rocks up to an IDC thinking that their instructors should teach skills then sorry - out of luck - they were taught as early as OW and should have been perfected at DM. During an IDC we teach how to control the environment, not learn how to hover. Bear these things in mind when you attend your training course of choice.

As for the factory mentality I always use an analogy about cars. Ford have a huge market presence around the world and turn out thousands and thousands of user-friendly, reliable, comfortable automobiles every year. They have lots of big factories. Ferrari have a small factory in Italy where each car is lovingly hand built to the highest of specifications. They cost a lot more than a Ford, they're more beautiful than a Ford, they can go faster than a Ford, but very few people in the world can drive Ferraris in the way they were meant to be driven, they break down all the time and you can't find the spare parts in your local dealer.

What's the safer bet?

Cheers

C.

 

[ElGaucho]

Your displeasure and disagreement with the PADI system is duly noted. By way of protest, you are certainly free to drop PADI MSDT from your profile & let your PADI professional status lapse. However, the fact remains that my post presents PADI standards while yours merely does your best impression of Angry Birds.

I am not a PADI drone, I believe I can have my own opinion on a lot of things. And I will let my professional status lapse when I don´t use it anymore. In the meantime I will have a voice on a "product" (that´s what it is) I purchased. How about that?

If you know of any professional dive agency that allows their divemasters to teach/evaluate uncertified students independent of an Instructor, I'd be interested in learning about them. BTW, you have conveniently forgotten to one minor detail about the Scuba Review: it is only done with CERTIFIED DIVERS.

I agree that Scuba Review is for certified divers, but DSD Leader is not for certified divers. So the line is very thin. And of course, DSD Leader can only take out people that have previously done ONE dive with an Instructor. Like that´s gonna turn them into Jacques Cousteau. On the other hand, I never mentioned unsupervised or supervised. I just said that Instructorship is not all that is meant to be. Come on, the IDC is a 12 day program on many places. That doesn´t automatically make you more prepared to be a good instructor.

Actually the DM phase is when most people do either an internship sort of program, or at least where they put lots of hours on diving and working with students. So limiting the DM a lot just makes lousier instructors in my own point of view.



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[Bubble Junky]

If you know of any professional dive agency that allows their divemasters to teach/evaluate uncertified students independent of an Instructor, I'd be interested in learning about them. BTW, you have conveniently forgotten to one minor detail about the Scuba Review: it is only done with CERTIFIED DIVERS.

Whether they are certified or not, they need a briefing, especially if i's been a long time since they last dived...

---------- Post Merged at 10:13 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:11 PM ----------

I agree that Scuba Review is for certified divers, but DSD Leader is not for certified divers. So the line is very thin. And of course, DSD Leader can only take out people that have previously done ONE dive with an Instructor.
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This is incorrect - DSD Leaders can take people on their first experience in the sea - in Confined Open Water, max depth 6m, where they have to 'practise' the skills. They would therefore have to brief and evaluate these skills, although 'mastery' is not required...

---------- Post Merged at 10:16 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:11 PM ----------

If you know of any professional dive agency that allows their divemasters to teach/evaluate uncertified students independent of an Instructor, I'd be interested in learning about them.

PADI - see above...

 

[SubMariner]

Whether they are certified or not, they need a briefing, especially if i's been a long time since they last dived...

---------- Post Merged at 10:13 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:11 PM ----------


This is incorrect - DSD Leaders can take people on their first experience in the sea - in Confined Open Water, max depth 6m, where they have to 'practise' the skills. They would therefore have to brief and evaluate these skills, although 'mastery' is not required...

---------- Post Merged at 10:16 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:11 PM ----------


Here is the Instructor Manual on DSD:
Divemasters who are Discover Scuba Diving Leaders and assistant instructors may only conduct the program in a pool or confined open water.
..........................................................
An instructor directly supervises the initial open water dive. Participants can make additional open water dives directly supervised by a certified assistant or instructor. Instructors indirectly supervise any additional dives conducted by a certified assistant.

Thus the FIRST OW DIVE for DSD is handled by the Instructor. So if the CONFINED WATER portion of the experience is handled outdoors "in pool like conditions" by a DSD Leader, the actual OW portion of the dive would still have to be directly supervised/led by the Instructor.

Subsequent DSD dives may be led by a CA, but it is still under the indirect supervision of an Instructor. They are not conducting this program on their own.

 

[Bubble Junky]

Here is the Instructor Manual on DSD:
Divemasters who are Discover Scuba Diving Leaders and assistant instructors may only conduct the program in a pool or confined open water.
..........................................................
An instructor directly supervises the initial open water dive. Participants can make additional open water dives directly supervised by a certified assistant or instructor. Instructors indirectly supervise any additional dives conducted by a certified assistant.

Thus the FIRST OW DIVE for DSD is handled by the Instructor. So if the CONFINED WATER portion of the experience is handled outdoors "in pool like conditions" by a DSD Leader, the actual OW portion of the dive would still have to be directly supervised/led by the Instructor.

Subsequent DSD dives may be led by a CA, but it is still under the indirect supervision of an Instructor. They are not conducting this program on their own.

For confined open water, have participants meet Skill Performance Requirements.

The OW dive is OPTIONAL, therefore the entire experience can be conducted in confined open water by a DSD Leader DM, independant of an instructor, and the skills MUST be done !