First Dive w/o a DM

[MauiScubaSteve]

Now that's what I'm talking about, very entertaining! But I have to wonder if you read my post? I asked two pretty specific questions in my post; did you answer the specific questions, that you quoted in the same post this nearly shoulder separating back patting tirade?

Have you ever heard of dive sites where the feature, like a cleaning station, is described as being "at the end of the reef" or "two to three hundred yards that way" (while pointing from shore). I guess there is no chance any of your students might ever be the kind of divers who don't dive much the year after certification, have some change in fitness level, and then the next year end up standing on a vacation beach with all your boastful training still mostly ringing in their ears.

Even though I would be more than comfortable matching my students against yours in post certification diving skill and pleasure, I'm still also comfortable telling my students that diving with a guide is how many satisfied and happy divers do most of their dives. Somehow I don't think you see the honesty and reality of a statement like that.

Did you even read my post? I'm not talking about those who WANT a DM if conditions are different or to see a particular place or thing. I'm talking about those who NEED it because they did not learn to weight themselves properly, control their buoyancy, navigate a simple out and back course, or aid their buddy if they got in trouble. But if they are properly trained and have the necessary info on site, conditions, location of the cleaning station and, as my students do, know how to determine their own weighting requirements then yes there is no reason they should not be able to do the dive on their own. Why would a certified OW diver not know how much weight they need or how to determine it? That translates to inferior training.

Why would they not know about tides, surf, current ,waves and the effects they have on a diver and how they can affect conditions? We have one lecture covering that.

They should also have the judgment to determine if the dive is beyond their abilities. This is all basic stuff. And why should any gear be unfamiliar. I have my students, over the length of a course, in basic bc's with weight belt, integrated bc, back inflate, and maybe a BPW. We do weight checks in each set up. By introducing buoyancy control as the first skill on scuba and then giving them time to practice it all that changes when they change gear is the way the bubble moves and the amount of air needed. Not a big deal. Of course I expect them to be doing basic skills hovering horizontal in midwater by the end of scuba pool session 2. Usually they are doing it by the end of session one on scuba.

This is the difference when it comes to a 32-40 hour skills and education based course from others. Technically an SEI OW diver is certified to 100 feet. We do not recommend it of course but they do have the knowledge(deco procedures, rescue skills, and task loading drills) and skill sets to do this. What they lack and it is made clear that they do is the experience.

I would have full confidence in two of my OW students being able to do a dive in new place, with new but equal or better conditions, and not require the services of a guide or DM and would trust them to take my son along who is only OW as well with them. They would have the judgment, knowledge, and skills to evaluate the site, decide it was in their range of comfort and abilities, plan the dive, execute it, and return safely. They would also be able to say that no it was beyond their comfort level and call the dive.

I would not expect my 62 yr old divers to do the same site as my 20 or 30 yr olds if it involved a long trek over difficult terrain. Or if the current was stronger than they would like to contend with. But he point is that THEY and not some guide or DM who does not know them would decide what is their best plan and dive that plan.

Let's just look at the last two bolded statements above. Two of your freshly minted OW divers whom you have told lack experience should stand on a far away beach that they have read and asked questions about and remembering you telling them they do not have experience they should make the decision on the best plan instead of the local guide that actually knows the site and it varying conditions?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

You are still not seeing what I am saying. I said a 100 foot dive in relation to that statement you bolded. A 30 or 40 foot reef? absolutely they are qualified. And again if they want to use a guide fine. But they do not need one is the point. I'm guessing a good deal of your business comes from guiding divers. I'm saying I and the students I train if they want you to do that fine. But they do not need you to and should have the option to determine that for themselves. I will not use ops that require me to dive with a DM or Guide. I tell my students to decide for themselves. If they feel a dive is for any reason beyond their comfort level, then rather than trust a DM or Guide to keep them safe, it is better to call the dive and work up to the point where it is in their comfort level. I don't give a rat's behind if they want to hire a guide for every dive. But if they are doing it because they need to then I feel I have shortchanged them in some area. It's why before my students go to a new place I free of charge will do a refresher, research the new location, and send emails to ops to make sure that they are not doing things that would put my students in jeopardy based on their skill level at the time, dives they want to do, how many dives, what they want to see, etc.

 

[jen_b]

My concern is not what Jim says, it's how he says it. I'd be quiet already and let it go except that I'm concerned a bit now about other new divers using Scubaboard and receiving such replies. So I'll leave this thread behind me with this remark:
You may think that "nurturing is for hippies", but by responding so crassly, one is not merely unhelpful and offensive, but they are possibly deterring an infinite amount of new divers from coming forth with their questions and concerns- And Jim, that is far more dangerous than anything a new diver could do.

 

[TSandM]

I can see the pros and cons of guides. I enjoy guided dives in strange places, where the guide knows a fun path to follow and especially if he is aware of places to find particularly interesting things. Sometimes, I am very glad of local eyes to help spot things that are clever with their camouflage -- pygmy seahorses, for example! I would not want anyone to come away from a thread like this with the idea that it is somehow reprehensible to dive with a guide. Heck, even on my cave diving trips, I like to do one day of guided diving, because the guides know particularly good lines or sometimes can facilitate logistics significantly.

But I think a certified diver should certainly feel that there are dives he or she can do WITHOUT a guide, especially shallow shore dives they've already done WITH a guide, and if someone doesn't feel that way, it does show a lack in their preparation. A good instructor, in my personal opinion, should turn out a diver who understands that it's OK to go diving without a guide, and has some idea of the information they need to assess whether this particular dive is one they should do by themselves or not. I sincerely hope that, despite the wrangling and rough words here, the OP came away with the idea that it's perfectly fine, and in fact desirable, to be able to be an independent diver.

 

[idocsteve]

dive 7
Went to scuba park 3 hours from home in November to check out my dive computer. No dive buddy available, but I hoped to join with somone there. Turned out I was the only one at the park. Went ahead and made a dive. It was shallow, clear and cold. Spent time on nav and buancy and had a great time. Really boosted confidence.

- You're on your 7th dive of all time
- You dove solo without a solo certification or training or redundant equipment

Although you're a confident diver and that's great, I think you're pushing the limits there. Regardless of how shallow it was.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

My concern is not what Jim says, it's how he says it. I'd be quiet already and let it go except that I'm concerned a bit now about other new divers using Scubaboard and receiving such replies. So I'll leave this thread behind me with this remark:
You may think that "nurturing is for hippies", but by responding so crassly, one is not merely unhelpful and offensive, but they are possibly deterring an infinite amount of new divers from coming forth with their questions and concerns- And Jim, that is far more dangerous than anything a new diver could do.

Perhaps you need to take a look at this to see where I am coming from:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...ering-diving/283566-who-responsible-what.html

Then you need to realize that I am not interested in training divers who expect the services of DM or Guide on every dive. I also do not want my name as the instructor on the card of a diver who cannot determine their weighting requirements, perform all basic skills in midwater while in a horizontal position, is unable to plan and execute a dive and return from it safely, and is uncomfortable in the water. This constitutes a failure in the education process to me.

My students expect my best effort to train them to be safe and competent. I expect them to put every effort into becoming those types of divers. I do have a learning agreement that clearly spells out my role and theirs. What is expected, what is required, what is optional, and what constitutes a pass. I would rather send students who want short, fast courses to another instructor. In fact I am required to by my agency standards.

I am currently developing a program for snorkeling and skin diving that will be just as thorough and safety centered as my scuba classes. I have between 40 and 60 students for this with the potential of many more. With those kinds of numbers I cannot nor will not cut corners, shorten classroom time, or reduce content. My reputation is on the line as well as the safety and well being of the course participants. I do not minimize the risks of any activities carried out around water. MY classes really are fun or so my students tell me but they are serious fun. I do not tolerate horseplay, disregard for safety protocols, or less than full attention to the material. In class or pool.

I watched the life leave a young boy pulled from the bottom of a pool because he did not know how to swim and his parents allowed him to go there anyway. That to me is abuse. In the same vein the accidents I have researched did not have to happen. They were completely preventable. Simple rescue skills that used to be taught in EVERY OW class, proper buddy skills, and little judgment fostered by more complete training would have saved the lives of every one of those people.

I know I sometimes come across as brash and even abrasive. The last month of my life with my wife dying seems to have exacerbated that. But that is me. And I am this way because so often based on the questions, comments, and threads by new and newer divers the seriousness of this sport is not being conveyed to them of they are not getting it. Sometimes a 2x4 is more effective than a feather. A 2x4 gets peoples attention and then they are able to hear what is being said. The last thing she would say to me before I went into the water or on a dive trip was " Dive Safe" and I know she not only meant that for me, but for me to try to keep those in my care safe as well. She would never forgive me if I did not do everything I could to keep divers safe. They all treated her like gold. She loved divers and when she would see me working on a paper or adjusting a course in response to an accident she got very upset because she knew it did not have to happen. When I would describe an incident that training could have prevented she would admonish me to never let a student of mine go into the water unprepared. I never will.

 

[idocsteve]

I watched the life leave a young boy pulled from the bottom of a pool because he did not know how to swim and his parents allowed him to go there anyway. That to me is abuse.

A more appropriate term would be "neglect".

Just say'en.


Carry on

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Neglect is not teaching a child how to swim and letting them go to a pool. Letting them then actually get in the water is abuse.

 

[idocsteve]

Neglect is not teaching a child how to swim and letting them go to a pool. Letting them then actually get in the water is abuse.

Letting a child who can't swim go to a pool is ok.

Allowing them to get into a pool if they don't know how to swim is neglect.

Forcing their head under the water is abuse.

 

[jen_b]

Jim, I think it's great that you give such weight to the safety of new divers, and it sounds like you run a really good thorough course, and I respect that. I haven't disagreed with anything you've said- I've disagreed with how you've said it.

Sometimes a 2x4 is more effective than a feather. A 2x4 gets peoples attention and then they are able to hear what is being said.

It's my opinion and experience that sometimes the medium or tone can obscure the message. I think the last thing you would want is a student who is afraid to ask you a question and instead ends up masking an insecurity.

My condolences about your wife.