First Dive w/o a DM

[MauiScubaSteve]

So, just to recap; for dive #10 the OP did an easy, shallow Roatan beach dive without a guide, right after doing a similar dive with a local guide. A successful first dive without a guide!

....so we did a short shallow dive together after. It went fine, but I couldn't help but feel like it was a bad idea. I guess my question is- how many dives did everyone here have before they were comfortable diving without a DM or otherwise very experienced buddy???

jen_b is now ahead of the individual diving pace set by one of SB's most respected mentors.

From my 14th dive on, the vast majority of my dives have been without any sort of guide.

.....

I don't think it was a bad idea. I think it was splendid, and you showed good judgment by making it a simple dive.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

What does dismay me and actually anger me is that there are still posts like this.

Gee, somehow I think posts like this are great. Here we have a new diver who has confided in us that there have been issues with her introduction to diving, but she is now a member of SB, has a nice U/W camera rig and sounds like an excited new diver to me.

If you really need one (guide) and the conditions are equal to or better than that in which you trained I think you need to find a more benign site or just sit by the pool.

So you think she should not have made the dive?

There is absolutely no reason a certified PROPERLY trained diver should require a DM to lead them around, hold their hand, etc.

Well, I've been diving since age 7 and instructing since '01 but when I dive Koloa Landing (Kauai) the first time I will go with a guide because I want to see the dragon morays and harlequin shrimp!

I am fortunate that as an instructor I don't have to follow a DM around and would never dive with an op that required me to.

Which would mean you would pretty much not do any charter boat dives in the State of Hawaii, and a number of other popular dive spots on the planet.

I have little tolerance for UW tourists and do not train people to be such. That there are places that do is also sad and a clear indication of the greed that runs many such places as opposed to wanting to create safe, skilled, competent, and confident divers.

The customers are part of the equation. There will always be people who WANT to become underwater tourists. If all good instructors acted like Jim there would be no good instructors for the customers who are begging to pay money for underwater tourist certification. Part of being a good instructor is making it so fun and easy that the necessary skills are learned and the new diver might become more than an underwater tourist.

Look at your classes, where were they lacking? How long did they last? 3 days. That is not a dive course. That is a way by an unscrupulous individual or entity to separate you from your money.

The customers are the reason there is a 3-day course. People are cheap; the 3-day class is all most people will pay for scuba certification. If a shop does not offer a competitively priced course they will lose customers to the shop that does. IMHO, a good instructor can teach most motivated students in 3 days; a big key is to find the right motivation for each student.

Would you be satisfied with a driving course taught the same way? Here ya go. it;s ok if traffic, freeways, and someone passing you scares the crap out of you. You can now take 2 tons of steel that is quite capable of killing you and many other people out any time you want.

Have things changed so much? My High School had a driver education class; no cost to my parents or myself, better rates from the insurance companies, only one street in town was 4-lanes, definitely no freeway practice and I don't remember any of my classmates or myself being passed while driving in that course, although we did all pass the course.

I am almost to the point of saying you know what? You got what you wanted, quick, easy, and of little educational value. So go ahead, just don't make me have to fill out an accident report or look at your corpse on the way back in.

Please see below for some facts about jen_b's certification; her instructor had a pretty inflexible, hard nosed approach. Not what I'd call the typical, greedy, unscrupulous individual separating her from her money. How many dive accident reports and/or diver corpses have you been forced to deal with?

I did my skills in 20', but due to the reef depths where I was certified (Boynton Beach, FL)- my DM made me do my certification dives at 60' and it scared the hell outta me. I was told there was no choice in the matter- I wish I had known about scubaboard before then. I started hyperventilating and came up from a dive early (after a safety stop of course) my DM made me do two additional dives at 60' to get my certification! She made me feel really bad about being scared- even though I know it's normal.

 

[drbill]

Did my first dives before I ever got certified (8 years later). Of course I don't recommend that to anyone... it was back in the early 60s.

It is pretty much standard practice here on the West Coast for newly certified divers to dive without a DM. DMs are more common in resort and international diving, although one can be hired here to dive with you.

I'd advise proceeding with further dive training leading up to rescue diver if you really enjoy the activity. That will give you much better training and undoubtedly greater confidence. Enjoy!

 

[jen_b]

...I am almost to the point of saying you know what? You got what you wanted, quick, easy, and of little educational value. So go ahead, just don't make me have to fill out an accident report or look at your corpse on the way back in.

Woah, way to take your anger out on a new diver looking to more experienced divers to assess the situation. Did it make you feel better? Are you this nurturing with all of your students? I'm sure you have some valid concerns underlying your response, but there are many ways to get your point across without being a total jerk.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

My job is not to nurture my students. It is to educate them to enter an alien environment that is normally hostile to human life. I am very patient and understanding with them. My class is 6-8 weeks with min of 32 hours of instruction before checkouts. I am forbidden to issue a cert to a student who is not completely comfortable in the water in which we train. I can also withhold a cert from a student who passes every test and every skill yet demonstrates poor judgment, a disregard for safety protocols, or I feel needs more time with me. Which by the way I do not charge extra for.

My attitude is from over a year of studying deaths among new divers that were absolutely preventable with proper training and sufficient practice. Reading autopsy reports, police reports, witness statements, actually talking to eyewitnesses and survivors of the deceased. In every case of the ones I studied and cite in my presentation on the failure of the buddy system they did not follow what are supposedly accepted procedures and recommendations by every agency I know of. Even the laughable RSTC guidelines were not adhered to. Those state that at the end of an OW course the diver should be able to plan a dive, execute said dive, and return safely without the aid of a dive pro in conditions equal to or better than that in which they trained. Someone who trains in a cold quarry with low vis should have no qualms about doing an easy shore dive with a hard bottom in warm water with great vis. If they do there is something wrong.

For whatever reason the seriousness of these were not passed on, glossed over, or disregarded by them. The latter is a shared responsibility of the student but I can judge when my student has or has not "got it". If not they do not get a card. I do use these reports along with autopsy results and photos of dead divers to get my point across if I feel that is what it takes. I do not do this for a living. Don't want to. Nurturing is term coined by the feel good hippies who also think every child is special. Guess what they are not. Some are ordinary, some not so ordinary, and some downright dumb.

I am sorry you took my remarks personally. They were meant as a general response to every one who wants quick and easy with as little effort as possible. Not just diving but life in general. I have little use for anyone who feels they are entitled to something with out working for it.

Also I clearly stated that wanting a DM to show one specific points or critters is very different than needing one to complete a dive safely. As for Hawaii and some of these other places that is fine with me if they want to herd their divers like sheep. There are enough places around the world that will let me be a grownup and plan my own dives and dive those plans.

I just returned from Puerto Rico a couple weeks ago. They normally want you to follow a DM. I had an OW student doing checkouts. I was not going to let them dictate the plan or the way I do my checkouts. Ya know what. After a short conversation and one dive where the DM watched me and my student for all of 5 minutes we were free to do whatever we wanted. I know how to use a compass and tell time. That is all that is important.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Jim, I have to say you are very entertaining to read. Of course I always picture Will Smith saying something to you like he said to the military boy in Men In Black (...best of the best of the best....!).

Do you have your new OW divers sign a statement to the effect that their training has only prepared them for conditions similar to where and what they were trained in?

So the quarry trained diver plans their first dive at a tropical ocean reef shore dive site, with tides and waves and current and surge and coral and fish and they are in different gear and they don't know how much weight they need and they heard about the turtle cleaning station but they don't know where it is, but the vis is better than they have ever dived in. So if they follow your training, do they just do the dive on their own?

Someone who trains in a cold quarry with low vis should have no qualms about doing an easy shore dive with a hard bottom in warm water with great vis. If they do there is something wrong.

 

[shoredivr]

My first non-guided dive was #23, although looking back at my log book, it says on dive #17 the DM raced off without his divers. My buddy and I actually enjoyed that dive, according to my log, as we could actually look at things without being herded, and we knew where the boat was.

Dive #23 was off Sanddollar Resort in Bonaire, and it was the best thing ever. We made a plan, stuck to it, navigated (not hard) and had a great dive. It totally changed my thinking about needing to have a DM.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Jim, I have to say you are very entertaining to read. Of course I always picture Will Smith saying something to you like he said to the military boy in Men In Black (...best of the best of the best....!).

Do you have your new OW divers sign a statement to the effect that their training has only prepared them for conditions similar to where and what they were trained in?

So the quarry trained diver plans their first dive at a tropical ocean reef shore dive site, with tides and waves and current and surge and coral and fish and they are in different gear and they don't know how much weight they need and they heard about the turtle cleaning station but they don't know where it is, but the vis is better than they have ever dived in. So if they follow your training, do they just do the dive on their own?

Did you even read my post? I'm not talking about those who WANT a DM if conditions are different or to see a particular place or thing. I'm talking about those who NEED it because they did not learn to weight themselves properly, control their buoyancy, navigate a simple out and back course, or aid their buddy if they got in trouble. But if they are properly trained and have the necessary info on site, conditions, location of the cleaning station and, as my students do, know how to determine their own weighting requirements then yes there is no reason they should not be able to do the dive on their own. Why would a certified OW diver not know how much weight they need or how to determine it? That translates to inferior training.

Why would they not know about tides, surf, current ,waves and the effects they have on a diver and how they can affect conditions? We have one lecture covering that.

They should also have the judgment to determine if the dive is beyond their abilities. This is all basic stuff. And why should any gear be unfamiliar. I have my students, over the length of a course, in basic bc's with weight belt, integrated bc, back inflate, and maybe a BPW. We do weight checks in each set up. By introducing buoyancy control as the first skill on scuba and then giving them time to practice it all that changes when they change gear is the way the bubble moves and the amount of air needed. Not a big deal. Of course I expect them to be doing basic skills hovering horizontal in midwater by the end of scuba pool session 2. Usually they are doing it by the end of session one on scuba.

This is the difference when it comes to a 32-40 hour skills and education based course from others. Technically an SEI OW diver is certified to 100 feet. We do not recommend it of course but they do have the knowledge(deco procedures, rescue skills, and task loading drills) and skill sets to do this. What they lack and it is made clear that they do is the experience.

I would have full confidence in two of my OW students being able to do a dive in new place, with new but equal or better conditions, and not require the services of a guide or DM and would trust them to take my son along who is only OW as well with them. They would have the judgment, knowledge, and skills to evaluate the site, decide it was in their range of comfort and abilities, plan the dive, execute it, and return safely. They would also be able to say that no it was beyond their comfort level and call the dive.

I would not expect my 62 yr old divers to do the same site as my 20 or 30 yr olds if it involved a long trek over difficult terrain. Or if the current was stronger than they would like to contend with. But he point is that THEY and not some guide or DM who does not know them would decide what is their best plan and dive that plan.

 

[diver 86]

dive 7
Went to scuba park 3 hours from home in November to check out my dive computer. No dive buddy available, but I hoped to join with somone there. Turned out I was the only one at the park. Went ahead and made a dive. It was shallow, clear and cold. Spent time on nav and buancy and had a great time. Really boosted confidence.

 

[Ghanguss]

Go for it!! An OW is supposed to train you to dive independently, and diving without a guide is a great way to build your confidence and put you more at ease in the water. It'll make you plan the dives yourself (and keep those skills intact), something that a lot of people don't do on guided dives. And it'll also be good for your navigation skills, since you'll have to use them. Of course take it easy and dive within your limits.

I have to agree here. My OW course consisted of an unguided boat dive to finish the course.

After my OW I felt confident to plan and execute my own dives. Of the next 100 dives I had done, only a handfull were guided. Those 100 dives also consisted of more than 30 different locations over a 500km stretch of coastline.

This has helped me to be a confident and well prepared diver and I would recommend anyone to do the same. Of course as mentioned always dive within your limits and be safe

BTW my OW course was run over 2 weeks, then the boat dive the week after.

If your entering the open ocean, you should be a confident swimmer. I developed my waterskils at Aussie beaches throughout my teen years and that has been the greatest asset I have for diving IMO.