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Fire on safari boat Suzana in Egypt (Red Sea Aggressor)
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Anthias
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People, slow down! We do not know that no one was on watch. Someone was on watch on my cruises. You don't always see the person on watch on a boat with multiple decks and areas you are not allowed to enter. Until we know what is what, please don't condemn anyone.
The crew of the Conception admitted no one was on watch. That is the foundation of the statement made by NTSB. Not something said by a person trying to escape a burning boat with their life. and all the trauma and stress that brings. I am NOT saying I don't believe all of their pain and trauma! Just saying they are in a difficult situation to be sure.
Egypt66 has a right to say what he wants, as we all do. It is called freedom of speech. Telling him to stop posting is not right just because you don't like what he says.
FWIW, this exact same sequence happened with the Conception with a local California divers list. Some got really angry, saying everything must have been caused by greedy and incompetent boat owners, and anyone that said anything different should shut up and get out. How do we learn from that kind of attitude? And we all, divers and operators alike, need to learn and improve from these horrible events.
You are naive if you think any business entity is going to write something stating anything that in not a known and verified fact. Unlike you, everything they say goes into a court of law. This is unlike any of the victims (and yes, I do say victims) making statements that may be proven to not be true. No one is going to prosecute them because no one would want to, in any way! But it is a fact of business, particularly here in the litigious US. You can't be open and up front without knowing that every single thing you say is true.
I know this from first hand experience and I've always remembered it when I see a statement like this. Yes, an unscrupulous owner/operator can be hiding something. But we can hope that the truth will out with qualified investigations. From my own experience with a very small non-profit, we had to make very limited statements when we did not renew a man's contract. It made people angry because they couldn't understand why the board had done it. the man, his supporters, and the local paper made statements that were not true and we were all targets of hate mail and threats. But if we said why, we could have been sued and taken into court, in a million ways we could not afford even though we were completely in the right. How many of you can afford to pay legal bills of several million dollars? Insurance will only cover so much. So yes, lawyers do draft much of a statement that a business owner makes in a situation like this. They have no choice in the matter. I will always remember that experience and live with the scars that left me in my trust of people and newspapers.
I've been on boats all over the world, including some I'd never go on again. There is one large chain I will not name that has lost a boat almost every single year, up to 6 boats last I heard. Most had no loss of life, but I know of at least one that did. Did all of you hear about those? No? Yet given that company's safety record, I would never go on one of their boats, nor would I book a client on one. Knowing what I know, doing that would be unethical.
I don't always love Aggressors because they aren't very big and the cabins are can be tight, but the price is very competitive and the organization is good. I love the unlimited diving policy! Some of the boats, being a franchise, aren't up to my standards, but the Red Sea Aggressor I was a good, moderately priced boat. I would have gone on it again.
When you have a heart attack underwater, chances are you will not make it because it is a very bad place for things to go wrong. Fires on boats are extremely rare, as has been said on this thread already. But it can go bad fast, with so many flammable things onboard, small spaces, most sleeping quarters below decks, and out in the middle of the water. We all need to look at this constructively, and see how we can make it safer for all of us with information based on facts.
The crew of the Conception admitted no one was on watch. That is the foundation of the statement made by NTSB. Not something said by a person trying to escape a burning boat with their life. and all the trauma and stress that brings. I am NOT saying I don't believe all of their pain and trauma! Just saying they are in a difficult situation to be sure.
Egypt66 has a right to say what he wants, as we all do. It is called freedom of speech. Telling him to stop posting is not right just because you don't like what he says.
FWIW, this exact same sequence happened with the Conception with a local California divers list. Some got really angry, saying everything must have been caused by greedy and incompetent boat owners, and anyone that said anything different should shut up and get out. How do we learn from that kind of attitude? And we all, divers and operators alike, need to learn and improve from these horrible events.
You are naive if you think any business entity is going to write something stating anything that in not a known and verified fact. Unlike you, everything they say goes into a court of law. This is unlike any of the victims (and yes, I do say victims) making statements that may be proven to not be true. No one is going to prosecute them because no one would want to, in any way! But it is a fact of business, particularly here in the litigious US. You can't be open and up front without knowing that every single thing you say is true.
I know this from first hand experience and I've always remembered it when I see a statement like this. Yes, an unscrupulous owner/operator can be hiding something. But we can hope that the truth will out with qualified investigations. From my own experience with a very small non-profit, we had to make very limited statements when we did not renew a man's contract. It made people angry because they couldn't understand why the board had done it. the man, his supporters, and the local paper made statements that were not true and we were all targets of hate mail and threats. But if we said why, we could have been sued and taken into court, in a million ways we could not afford even though we were completely in the right. How many of you can afford to pay legal bills of several million dollars? Insurance will only cover so much. So yes, lawyers do draft much of a statement that a business owner makes in a situation like this. They have no choice in the matter. I will always remember that experience and live with the scars that left me in my trust of people and newspapers.
I've been on boats all over the world, including some I'd never go on again. There is one large chain I will not name that has lost a boat almost every single year, up to 6 boats last I heard. Most had no loss of life, but I know of at least one that did. Did all of you hear about those? No? Yet given that company's safety record, I would never go on one of their boats, nor would I book a client on one. Knowing what I know, doing that would be unethical.
I don't always love Aggressors because they aren't very big and the cabins are can be tight, but the price is very competitive and the organization is good. I love the unlimited diving policy! Some of the boats, being a franchise, aren't up to my standards, but the Red Sea Aggressor I was a good, moderately priced boat. I would have gone on it again.
When you have a heart attack underwater, chances are you will not make it because it is a very bad place for things to go wrong. Fires on boats are extremely rare, as has been said on this thread already. But it can go bad fast, with so many flammable things onboard, small spaces, most sleeping quarters below decks, and out in the middle of the water. We all need to look at this constructively, and see how we can make it safer for all of us with information based on facts.
OP
There's a world outside the US, something that's often forgotten by US posters. You can sue in other countries as well, but not with the aim of draining the sued person financially.
I totally agree with you.
How many facts did hurghadians.com provide? How many facts did Aggressor provide?
Versus how many facts were provided by people posting on Scubaboard?
Emotions can be sparked by some posters, but I&A is a very powerful section, providing information that would be hard to get through official statements. And if you don't like it....there's a mod squad for that.
Anthias
Registered
I'm well aware of that the rest of the world is not the US. But the Aggressor is a US based company, so any statements made would be looked at in a US court.
I'm not sure what you mean by I & A. And a mod squad?
If there is fault to be found, fine. But I want it to be found by investigators, not the court of public opinion. That is all I am saying and that is my choice. I'm not going to condemn any person or company without facts. Given how important tourism to the Egyptian economy (massive) and how hard it has been hit since the Arab Spring, heads will roll if the boat owners are found to be at fault. Egyptian justice can be harsh.
I'm not sure what you mean by I & A. And a mod squad?
If there is fault to be found, fine. But I want it to be found by investigators, not the court of public opinion. That is all I am saying and that is my choice. I'm not going to condemn any person or company without facts. Given how important tourism to the Egyptian economy (massive) and how hard it has been hit since the Arab Spring, heads will roll if the boat owners are found to be at fault. Egyptian justice can be harsh.
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I'm gong to go out on a limb here and post my thoughts. I have done a good bit of moderating in this thread, but with this, I pass any further moderating to someone else. We don't moderate where we comment. As a further caveat, I know Wayne Brown, consider him a friend and the Aggressor fleet used to be advertisers here. In addition, I know several employees, past and present, who worked for the Aggressor fleet. A couple of them I consider to be dear friends.
It's my sincerest belief that Wayne Brown cares about his clients, his employees, his boats and his good name as he should. However, he can't be everywhere even though he's known to be a bit of a micromanager. No, he's not perfect but he's worked hard to build his franchise always with an eye to do things safely and ethically. While we would like them to be even fewer, these incidents are still rather rare. Consequently, no one has created a punch list of everything that needs to be attended to when a boat goes up in flames. Yeah, I get that a lot of people are angry because Wayne didn't respond how they think he should have. I believe he did his sincere best. I also believe he's dedicated to figuring out what went wrong, how to prevent it from happening again as well as what to do after the fact. After all, fires and deaths are bad for business and will take an emotional toll as well. Put yourselves in his shoes for a moment and think how you would feel if this happened on a boat you owned. I find the accusations that he doesn't care and/or is lying to be ridiculous and even libelous. Think a bit
No, we may never know what caused the fire, just like any other boat fire. We do see a number of mistakes like the crew member sleeping on the escape hatch. What was he thinking? I do know that baseless accusations will do nothing to help us understand the issues surrounding this.
I do know this. It's my sincere belief that battery charging and electronics need to be re-evaluated and protocols changed. No electronics, charging or not, belong below decks. Charging areas should be dedicated, with exhaust fans or other means of smoke control, that will stop fires from spreading and their fumes from killing anyone. Lights, cameras, phones, tablets and computers (dive or laptops) need to be contained unless they are under active control by their user. No, we don't know if this fire or the one on Conception were caused by 18650s running amok, but they are my best bet. I'm certain that this will be a hot topic at DEMA and I am sure I will have my ear bent a number of times discussing this.
It's my sincerest belief that Wayne Brown cares about his clients, his employees, his boats and his good name as he should. However, he can't be everywhere even though he's known to be a bit of a micromanager. No, he's not perfect but he's worked hard to build his franchise always with an eye to do things safely and ethically. While we would like them to be even fewer, these incidents are still rather rare. Consequently, no one has created a punch list of everything that needs to be attended to when a boat goes up in flames. Yeah, I get that a lot of people are angry because Wayne didn't respond how they think he should have. I believe he did his sincere best. I also believe he's dedicated to figuring out what went wrong, how to prevent it from happening again as well as what to do after the fact. After all, fires and deaths are bad for business and will take an emotional toll as well. Put yourselves in his shoes for a moment and think how you would feel if this happened on a boat you owned. I find the accusations that he doesn't care and/or is lying to be ridiculous and even libelous. Think a bit
No, we may never know what caused the fire, just like any other boat fire. We do see a number of mistakes like the crew member sleeping on the escape hatch. What was he thinking? I do know that baseless accusations will do nothing to help us understand the issues surrounding this.
I do know this. It's my sincere belief that battery charging and electronics need to be re-evaluated and protocols changed. No electronics, charging or not, belong below decks. Charging areas should be dedicated, with exhaust fans or other means of smoke control, that will stop fires from spreading and their fumes from killing anyone. Lights, cameras, phones, tablets and computers (dive or laptops) need to be contained unless they are under active control by their user. No, we don't know if this fire or the one on Conception were caused by 18650s running amok, but they are my best bet. I'm certain that this will be a hot topic at DEMA and I am sure I will have my ear bent a number of times discussing this.
That was the point of my question about whether the escape hatch was in a cabin that could potentially be locked. No one said it was locked in this specific instance but if it could potentially be locked in a future incident, that is a safety issue. I don't even like it being behind a door, even if unlocked.
Yes, much better to base opinions on facts rather than speculation, and much better for investigators to do the investigating, but I think the point here is to ensure they do their job and the facts are disclosed not suppressed. I, for one, will indite them in the court of public opinion if it appears that either the company or local authorities are trying to white wash the incident.
Fair to state. Especially the last part is maybe not sufficiently understood and appreciated.
BUT, it is also fair to state this I believe:
The local justice system, harsh as may be, is up to to the locals to shape and form. Often it‘s a very bad idea for foreigners to try to dibble in that (I am aware that you did not suggest that anyone is or should, getting to the point next)
That however has nothing to do with seeking justice. Victims and relatives and the otherwise affected have the right to seek justice and a harsh system is no reason not to seek it. Future divers have the right i.m.h.o to benefit from improvements that may come of this and to do that well does (we agree on this I believe) require that all facts come to light.
So, in that sense I happen to believe that being able to read one or several eyewitness reports unfiltered by company employees, managers or owners is a tremendous benefit. Thank you scubaboard.com and taucher.net !
That much more so in light of the claim that Ahmed was present and influencing (and translating) during all police interviews. I do not know what is true, but I read that stated by a first hand witness (diver, survivor). If that‘s what happened it would be much more understandable from a damage control point of view (financial, jail time, but also minimizing rolling head count) than from a finding truth point of view. And that is a real concern, because then justice might not be served and all learnable lessons might not be learned.
I do not know what is true, what really transpired, what was misinterpreted and I am fully aware that everyone involved or a stakeholder in the matter may choose to spin their narration a bit and may not even be aware that they see things with a bias. Everybody has bias. Unbiased is a myth. That‘s why it matters to be able to see / hear / read all available first hand reports and not just „curated“ ones.
I for one would encourage other survivors to offer their point of view... if their lawyer (if they consulted one) does not „stop them“.
And again:
Thank you scubaboard.com and taucher.net !
And yes, public opinion gets ugly at times and needs to be taken in carefully and critically and with eyes and ears wide open to all relevant input providing facts and a bit blind to all the opinion pieces and fact spinning the internet seems to migrate to. It gets ugly. No doubt. Suppressing Public opinion is a whole lot uglier so! (NOT stating or insinuating that you did or attempted to, just stating as a matter of opinion and preference of choice).
Generally speaking:
Amen!
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